Turgon
Topic Author
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 02:07

Alpha Feedback - Artistic issue with Swords, p.48

Tue 20 Jul 2021, 17:34

First I want to say that I love the 2nd Edition of TOR. As with all alpha versions of course there’s a couple of issues to iron out. The Live Stream with Francesco and Martin yesterday took care of several important issues.

I just have one very small thing to nitpick at on page 48. Here we find beautiful drawings of examples of most arms. However the two Swords depicted (Sword and Long Sword) are drawn in an odd way. The bases of the blades, the ”ricasso”, are extremely broad compare to the rest of the blade.

When you wield a sword you don’t want all power stay in your hand and the base of the sword/ricasso. You want the force of the swing to hit with maximum power at the opponents body (or sword/sheild) in order to wear down and tire out the opponent (Imagine a carpenters hammer. Where is the weight of the hammer located? At the head that hits the nail). The swords at p.48 has a backward balance. Almost all force in a blow stay at the hand and the base/ricasso of the sword, and almost none of the force will hit the opponent.

Consider how swords through the ages have been designed, regardless culture or time period. Every Swordsman wants a weapon that is effective. They don’t want something that looks different but gives them a disadvantage. The two swords depicted on p.48 is not swords made for battle, but for ceremonial purpose in a religious context (swords have had a very important roll in religious context, over all times and cultures). The swords resembles much to the fantastic design of ritual swords from Edo region in Nigeria and likewise ritual swords. Swords with two or three blades, ya even four blades. They look very cool but are totally useless to use in a battle.

A person using the swords on p.48 would lose every time against an equally good opponent.

I understand the artist wants to create something with a personal touch. On the other hand, art undeniably establish connotations to our imaginations. In this case of how the swords a Player-hero carry will look like, and function. In other words, it’s fair to say that the artists, on both good and bad, has a responsibility for how the players imagine the fantasy world and the gear in it. And it get especially important when the function of a weapon more or less is lost. It's like adding horns to a Viking helmet.

This of course has no impact on TOR as a game. It will only have an impact on our imaginations, for some more, for other less, or not at all. In other words, it would be nice if this particular art could be altered. If not, let it be. I personally can live with it since it won’t effect the game mechanisms.
 
gyrovague
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: Alpha Feedback - Artistic issue with Swords, p.48

Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:18

<pedantry>
Actually....a "ricasso" is a flat, edge-less area between the handle/guard and the blade proper. The swords in those drawings don't have any ricasso. They should...it's what gives you the clearance to get your sharpening stone all the way to the heel of the blade, without bumping into the guard. If you can't sharpen all the way to heel, then as the rest of the edge wears down from long use and re-sharpening you get an ever-larger, dull bump down there.

And I will disagree with your comments about center of mass: ideally the center of mass should be about in the same area where those swords are widest...just in front of the guard...so balance-wise it probably works out. That's why a lot of sword designs have heavy pommels: to shift the center of mass from out on the blade back toward the guard. But adding mass to the center of mass is not the way to do it.

So I do agree that it's a strange design. Either those wide blades are paper-thin and thus prone to damage and generally useless, or it just adds a bunch of overall weight for no good reason.

And don't get me started on that "mattock"!
</pedantry>
 
gyrovague
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: Alpha Feedback - Artistic issue with Swords, p.48

Wed 21 Jul 2021, 03:28

P.S. Not that there aren't any real-world blade designs like that (e.g. moro gunong, or perhaps a single-edged T-spine Khyber) but the longer the blade becomes the less sense it makes.
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Alpha Feedback - Artistic issue with Swords, p.48

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 07:41

I hate the look of those swords. Free League, please have a gentle word with the artist to have them redrawn in a more realistic way (much less pointy at the tip; not so wide at the base).
 
Dorjcal
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: Alpha Feedback - Artistic issue with Swords, p.48

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 11:41

They are inspired by REAL anglo-saxon swords. Which is the period from which Tolkien was using for the inspiration for his books.
Here an example from the British Museum:

Image
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Alpha Feedback - Artistic issue with Swords, p.48

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 11:46

They are inspired by REAL anglo-saxon swords. Which is the period from which Tolkien was using for the inspiration for his books.
Inspired maybe but the drawings are much more pointy and wider at the base than the museum piece you showed (if they looked more like the museum piece I would be happy).
 
Dorjcal
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: Alpha Feedback - Artistic issue with Swords, p.48

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 12:02

They are inspired by REAL anglo-saxon swords. Which is the period from which Tolkien was using for the inspiration for his books.
Inspired maybe but the drawings are much more pointy and wider at the base than the museum piece you showed (if they looked more like the museum piece I would be happy).
What about this other museum pieces?
Image
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Alpha Feedback - Artistic issue with Swords, p.48

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 12:30

Those other museum pieces are closer to those in the rulebook, but even they have a less pronounced pointy end.

I've made the rulebook ones narrower and longer and shaved off some of the extra-pointiness of the ends and think these look nicer whilst remaining true to their Anglo-Saxon heritage.
altered-swords.jpg
altered-swords.jpg (19.76 KiB) Viewed 1469 times
 
gyrovague
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: Alpha Feedback - Artistic issue with Swords, p.48

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 16:26

The ones in the photo are short. Lengthened out to a full-sized sword they look (to me, anyway) like they have to either be far too heavy to wield one-handed, or thin to the point of fragility. Or both!

But maybe those elves and Numenoreans are just stronger than we are.


Moderator Message: Removed a double post (of this post).
 
Turgon
Topic Author
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 02:07

Re: Alpha Feedback - Artistic issue with Swords, p.48

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 18:07

They are inspired by REAL anglo-saxon swords. Which is the period from which Tolkien was using for the inspiration for his books.
Inspired maybe but the drawings are much more pointy and wider at the base than the museum piece you showed (if they looked more like the museum piece I would be happy).
What about this other museum pieces?
Image
And you are sure that is not ceremonial swords? They have a horrible balance.

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