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Rafamir
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Alpha feedback - Use "Folk" instead of "folks" as a collective noun (14 instances)

Tue 20 Jul 2021, 04:43

There are several places in the 2e Alpha where "folks" is used and sounds funny - 14 by my count. In keeping with Tolkien's usage, TOR rules should default to using "folk" without the s, and only use "folks" in rare cases that refer to groups of individuals rather than aggregate members of a culture. Edit: Folk is appropriate whether referring to one culture (Durin's Folk) or multiple cultures (the Free Peoples of Middle-earth can also be expressed as the Free Folk).

One reference (https://oneminuteenglish.org/en/folk-or-folks/) puts it this way: “Folk” is a collective noun and refers to a group of people in general. “Folks” is a group of individuals. (To Anglophone ears, "Free Folks" sounds funny because we have internalized this distinction between groups of people and groups of individuals.)

Keep "folks" here:

p. 40 "that many folks mistake for lack of courage." (Here folks can be understood to mean individuals rather than other peoples of Middle-earth.)
p. 107 "allows to filter other folks' reaction ..." (Here again folks is appropriately referring to groups of individuals)

Replace "folks" with "folk" here:

p. 11 "distant realms and the folk who inhabit them"
p. 29 under NAME: "various folk of Middle-earth"
p. 30 "The language of most folk inhabiting ..."
p. 34 "at odds with other folk"
p. 35 "members of other folk"
p. 38 "the way other folk do"
p. 66 "as diverse as the folk that craft them."
p. 72 "Impoverished folk are probably suffering ..."
p. 82 "has even led other folk to believe ..."
p. 108 "the folk inhabiting it"
p. 123 "other folk struggle to appreciate it"
p. 163 "if the item is known by different folk."
p. 164 "the treasuries of most folk"
p. 169 "Distant folk grow suspicious ..."
Last edited by Rafamir on Wed 21 Jul 2021, 02:18, edited 6 times in total.
 
gyrovague
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Re: Folk not folks as a collective noun (14 instances)

Tue 20 Jul 2021, 07:25

I didn't track down each reference (some of them are ambiguous as quoted) but overall Rafamir's observation is spot on. Like the post about "on the contrary" this will not sound right to native speakers if used incorrectly.
 
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aramis
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Re: Alpha feedback - Use "Folk" instead of "folks" as a collective noun (14 instances)

Thu 22 Jul 2021, 05:25

The term "folks" is colloquial PNW & Alaska for parents, perhaps more widely.

There are similar issues with other terms. Prolonged Rest instead of Long Rest. Close Combat vs Melee Combat
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Aiden Harrison
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Re: Alpha feedback - Use "Folk" instead of "folks" as a collective noun (14 instances)

Thu 22 Jul 2021, 13:23

The term "folks" is colloquial PNW & Alaska for parents, perhaps more widely.

There are similar issues with other terms. Prolonged Rest instead of Long Rest. Close Combat vs Melee Combat
The examples that Rafamir gives are spot on. Folk is another way of saying people, As in the Free Folk of Middle-Earth.

Nothing wrong with Prolonged Rest, as in a lengthy rest.

Melee is a French word and should be avoided when trying to emulate Tolkien.
 
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William
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Re: Alpha feedback - Use "Folk" instead of "folks" as a collective noun (14 instances)

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 00:23

I second changing 'folks' into 'folk' (my digital edition of the trilogy counts 8 instances of folks and 403 of folk).

'Melee' bugs me as well (just like 'coup de grâce' did in 1e). Tolkien wasn't a fan of the french language (or its cuisine...)!
 
Mythicos
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Re: Alpha feedback - Use "Folk" instead of "folks" as a collective noun (14 instances)

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 02:02


'Melee' bugs me as well (just like 'coup de grâce' did in 1e). Tolkien wasn't a fan of the french language (or its cuisine...)!

I know this is mostly in jest, but as the French speaking guy on these forums...

Tolkien doesn't hate the French language (*). It's just that he was inventing languages that were based on Germanic and Scandinavian languages; and he was very careful (since LotR and The Hobbit are supposed to be books written in the Secondary World) to write in a style and structure that befits these languages.

But yeah, I agree that care should be taken not to latinize the game's vocabulary too much.
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(*) He did lament the fact that the Norman invasion of 1066 "polluted" and "bastardized" the dialects that were spoken and written in England at the time.
 
baldrick0712
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Re: Alpha feedback - Use "Folk" instead of "folks" as a collective noun (14 instances)

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 04:16

Folks sounds like something George Bush would say so yes, please change to folk.
 
gyrovague
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Re: Alpha feedback - Use "Folk" instead of "folks" as a collective noun (14 instances)

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 04:39

Unless the search feature in my PDF viewer is broken, the word "melee" is used exactly once in the entire text, and not as game terminology like "Enhearten" but just to explain a rule.

If we purge all latinate words from the game it's going to be awfully hard to read. "Valour", anybody?
 
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aramis
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Re: Alpha feedback - Use "Folk" instead of "folks" as a collective noun (14 instances)

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 08:50

Unless the search feature in my PDF viewer is broken, the word "melee" is used exactly once in the entire text, and not as game terminology like "Enhearten" but just to explain a rule.

If we purge all latinate words from the game it's going to be awfully hard to read. "Valour", anybody?
Bravery: móðugr is the Old Norse, from Proto-Germanic *mōdagaz (“courageous”).

Old English has several for courage: cræft; ellen; mod; þrymm
All of those have changed or dropped. Craft no longer maps to bravery, courage, or skill at arms; it in fact now refers to skill outside the realm of arms, often to working of magic or tradeswork. ellen and mod have dropped to proper noun use only. I don't think thrim has a modern use, save perhaps trim in the semi-archaic "in fighting trim"

The way "close combat" is used is a bit of a case of misuse of the term... for it properly close combat means engagement in confined spaces, not the non-ranged combat TOR uses it as.

And "engage" is itself a French term... engagement and engaged are both derived from the same root.
So is "attack" - 16th C, from French "attaque" and/or Italian "attaccare".
And "combat" itself is 16th C addition to English, from the French of the same spelling.

Most of the terms are french, even "close combat" is itself two French-derived terms.

So the rationalization that Close Combat is less French than Melee is an error in attributions.

Melee is the more correct term for the use, but again technically does not exclude ranged weapons, either.
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VenomousFiligree
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Re: Alpha feedback - Use "Folk" instead of "folks" as a collective noun (14 instances)

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 10:44

Referring to the Collins dictionary and British English (which is what I believe the rules are using), I personally think Close Combat sounds more accurate:

close combat
the act of fighting at close quarters

close combat
(or hand-to-hand combat)
fighting at close quarters

at close quarters
a. engaged in hand-to-hand combat
b. in close proximity; very near together


melee
a noisy riotous fight or brawl

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