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jthurn
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon 01 Jun 2020, 17:58

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Fri 09 Jul 2021, 04:52

But the loss of corruption and blighted lands is a huge loss. The doubling of skill applicability dramatically lessens their value (but, probably HAD to be done because the new TNs tied to attributes offer fewer viable party skill combinations!) the lack of season/terrain impact makes the entire map feel very generic. I feel like there’s been a loss of some character of the journey itself, especially if each region or area doesn’t have its own table. While it’s easily replaceable and flexed, again it’s just kind of something I would have hoped I wouldn’t have needed to actively fix myself from the RAW this time.
RichKarp speaks my mind.
 
baldrick0712
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Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Fri 09 Jul 2021, 04:57

I kind of hate how journeys are handled now. Now I have to admit, there was plenty of room for improvement on 1e and I wasn’t using RAW travel (for starters, I knew exactly which Hazards I would use and usually the only issue was when, prompted by Eye rolls). And the switch to one hex a day makes me wonder why it wasn’t always that way.

But the loss of corruption and blighted lands is a huge loss. The doubling of skill applicability dramatically lessens their value (but, probably HAD to be done because the new TNs tied to attributes offer fewer viable party skill combinations!) the lack of season/terrain impact makes the entire map feel very generic. I feel like there’s been a loss of some character of the journey itself, especially if each region or area doesn’t have its own table. While it’s easily replaceable and flexed, again it’s just kind of something I would have hoped I wouldn’t have needed to actively fix myself from the RAW this time.
Unfortunately it seems to fit the general trend with 2e from what I've seen - simplify, simplify, simplify.
 
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jthurn
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon 01 Jun 2020, 17:58

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Fri 09 Jul 2021, 05:02

I kind of hate how journeys are handled now. Now I have to admit, there was plenty of room for improvement on 1e and I wasn’t using RAW travel (for starters, I knew exactly which Hazards I would use and usually the only issue was when, prompted by Eye rolls). And the switch to one hex a day makes me wonder why it wasn’t always that way.

But the loss of corruption and blighted lands is a huge loss. The doubling of skill applicability dramatically lessens their value (but, probably HAD to be done because the new TNs tied to attributes offer fewer viable party skill combinations!) the lack of season/terrain impact makes the entire map feel very generic. I feel like there’s been a loss of some character of the journey itself, especially if each region or area doesn’t have its own table. While it’s easily replaceable and flexed, again it’s just kind of something I would have hoped I wouldn’t have needed to actively fix myself from the RAW this time.
Unfortunately it seems to fit the general trend with 2e from what I've seen - simplify, simplify, simplify.
It seems to be a trend in RPGs and board games alike. There are some that go against the tide, but most are trying to streamline like crazy. Some of them do a fantastic job and end up with an elegant game, but too often I find myself finishing up and thinking "and then what?"

This designer's board games are not simple affairs, but they're nonetheless elegant. I'm hoping the final version of 2E will be in that spirit.
 
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Michele
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 16:58

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Fri 09 Jul 2021, 10:40

But the loss of corruption and blighted lands is a huge loss.
2 events out of 7 deal Shadow points, so corruption and blighted lands are still there, in a way.
the lack of season/terrain impact makes the entire map feel very generic.
Hmm, are we reading the same rules? Terrain does influence the Event roll (Border Lands roll Favoured, Wild Lands roll normal and Dark Lands roll Ill-favoured), while season impacts on Fatigue gain.
I feel like there’s been a loss of some character of the journey itself, especially if each region or area doesn’t have its own table.
Well, a table for each region wouldn't fit in the corebook, for sure. Also, I believe that the core rules are designed to provide the Loremaster with guidelines to improvise their own journey events, rather than being too specific about what happens and where. Lastly, I am most sure that alternate/region-specific tables will be provided in future supplements, so I wouldn't worry about any lack of detail at this stage.
It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till.
 
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aramis
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Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Fri 09 Jul 2021, 12:26

But the loss of corruption and blighted lands is a huge loss.
Not hard to add in, just use GM determined encounters in perilous areas with Shadow generating encounters.

Note that the 5 categories of civilization (Free, Border, Wild, Shadow, Dark) have been reduced to 4, with 3 explicit: Border, Wild, Dark, and the implied Free (p. 113); Perilous is in a sidebar (p. 112) and would be applicable in a number of areas. rather than affecting the travel TN, it affects the nature of the encounter... Border is event type rolled with Favoured, dark with Ill-Favoured.
Note that the shadow gain is variable by civilization category...
Free: none
Border: fail=all 3/144, fail = target only 12/144
Wild: fail = all 12/144, fail = target only 24/144
Dark: fail = all = 21/244, fail = target only 36/144

Note that the journey events table does NOT include random combat encounters. I think this may be a bit of an issue. But it does provide for wounding.
Border: 1/144
Wild: 12/144
Dark: 23/144

Likewise, terrain is reduced from 8 distinct entries to 3: normal speed, half-speed, and impassible. A touch more effort required by the GM, but simpler and easier to use. And memorable.

A pure road bonus is easy... treat it as a beneficial circumstance and have the leader huck a die or two extra...
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Smith & Wesson: the original point and click interface...
 
Mythicos
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 16 Jun 2020, 03:46

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Fri 09 Jul 2021, 15:51

But the loss of corruption and blighted lands is a huge loss.
Not hard to add in, just use GM determined encounters in perilous areas with Shadow generating encounters.

Note that the 5 categories of civilization (Free, Border, Wild, Shadow, Dark) have been reduced to 4, with 3 explicit: Border, Wild, Dark, and the implied Free (p. 113); Perilous is in a sidebar (p. 112) and would be applicable in a number of areas. rather than affecting the travel TN, it affects the nature of the encounter... Border is event type rolled with Favoured, dark with Ill-Favoured.
Note that the shadow gain is variable by civilization category...
Free: none
Border: fail=all 3/144, fail = target only 12/144
Wild: fail = all 12/144, fail = target only 24/144
Dark: fail = all = 21/244, fail = target only 36/144

Note that the journey events table does NOT include random combat encounters. I think this may be a bit of an issue. But it does provide for wounding.
Border: 1/144
Wild: 12/144
Dark: 23/144

Likewise, terrain is reduced from 8 distinct entries to 3: normal speed, half-speed, and impassible. A touch more effort required by the GM, but simpler and easier to use. And memorable.

A pure road bonus is easy... treat it as a beneficial circumstance and have the leader huck a die or two extra...
Well said.

Yes, the new Journey rules are simpler, but I don't think they have been gutted out of any substance.
 
MDuckworth83
Topic Author
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue 06 Jul 2021, 03:32

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Sat 10 Jul 2021, 00:55

I feel like I won't really know how I feel about this until I see the map, but yeah. I guess I was kind of hoping the maps would be unchanged since 1e did them SO STINKIN WELL. I do prefer the "If it's not broken, don't fix it" principle on 2nd editions of a game. 20 mile hexes makes sense from a perspective of 1 a day across regular terrain, but I'm worried that the map is going to lose a lot of granularity being shrunk down to 1/2 the size with 1/2 the detail. And the lack of combat encounters... can't remember if I hit on that in the OP but that didn't sit well with me either. Part of the excitement of travel is the danger... and nothing is more dangerous than running into enemies. It's also a great way to build theme (running into a colony of spiders in Mirkwood for example). Honestly it felt like a tease when there is literally a dragon on the page where you are reading this! lol

I "do" think I'll feel better when I see some more detail filled in for the ecounters. One thing that 1 ed did marvelously that really brought the flavor of a region using the journey mechanic was scripted hazards (now scripted events). As it stands, it looks ponderous trying to figure out how to come up with an improv'd scenario on the fly to determine why a guy with a craft skill is rolling to take shadow or not. Oh you became frustrated because you were trying to fix the wagon wheel as a scouting event and it broke so you cursed, take one shadow? Just not feeling some of that.

I think the event system has a lot of potential, and something very similar works great in AiME. Hopefully they will do some tweaking between now and release.
 
MDuckworth83
Topic Author
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue 06 Jul 2021, 03:32

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Sat 10 Jul 2021, 00:58

Also forgot to mention, I'm also quite sensitive to this common trend of trying to oversimplify new games. The new thing is to try to appeal to broader audiences... following the principle that you make more money selling Bud Lite then you do a niche craft beer. It's happening in pretty much every gaming genre out there... I mean D&D is almost a joke at this point. Descent 2.0 literally took the dungeon crawling out of a dungeon crawling tactical board game! lol.

I am really crossing my fingers that a passionate designer making a Tolkien themed game won't fall into the same trap, but only time will tell... it's only the alpha we are looking at.
 
Mythicos
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 16 Jun 2020, 03:46

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Sat 10 Jul 2021, 02:42

Also forgot to mention, I'm also quite sensitive to this common trend of trying to oversimplify new games. The new thing is to try to appeal to broader audiences... following the principle that you make more money selling Bud Lite then you do a niche craft beer. It's happening in pretty much every gaming genre out there... I mean D&D is almost a joke at this point. Descent 2.0 literally took the dungeon crawling out of a dungeon crawling tactical board game! lol.

I am really crossing my fingers that a passionate designer making a Tolkien themed game won't fall into the same trap, but only time will tell... it's only the alpha we are looking at.

Journeys had a lot of problems in the 1st edition of the game. I have no idea if you were on the C7 forums at the time, but there were multiple threads saying that: (1) there was too many dice rolls; (2) Travel was an über-skill that every character had to have at least 2, if not 3 ranks in; (3) calculating the journey was very complex (not complicated, complex; there's a difference) and, while some journeys could be prepared ahead of time, the game would screech to a halt if a Journey had to be improvised (because of a decision by the players that was unforeseen by the LM). I think most people agreed that there was room for improvement.

Now, using words like "oversimplification", "try to appeal to broader audiences", or drawing comparisons to Bud Light or saying that D&D or Descent are joke games for being to simple for your taste... it's a little tasteless.
 
edufernandes
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed 17 Feb 2021, 21:28

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Sat 10 Jul 2021, 03:02

I have no problem with simplifications, and to be honest, I love them, as long rules don't get on my way of telling a story.
It's a game about imagination, and preparation ahead, at least.
The biggest problem I have with the 1ed. travel system is the complexity of all. I've tried AiME also, and it's all about tables, terrible (but it's not the point).
Personaly, I don't like when a RPG game tries to cover all possible situations, I just need the rules, that's it, I DM for years, let me do the narrative, let me imagine all the rest.
I like to change things as the adventure goes, sometimes you need more tension, sometimes less, I like to feel and try to read the players reactions and drive things to give them the best experience possible. As the rules increase in complexity I need to tweak them more. So, for me, more complexity creates more problems to my style of telling a story.
Of course, it's just my experience, as a long time DM and experienced Roleplayer. I don't want to be cocky, but It's just my point of view. So far I like this 2ed.

PS: Sorry for any mistakes, English is not my native language.
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