• 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
 
MDuckworth83
Topic Author
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue 06 Jul 2021, 03:32

New Journey System - yay or nay?

Wed 07 Jul 2021, 04:04

I think I've wrapped my head around the new journey system finally. What they have essentially done is gone from a system where you roll for (instant) fatigue with a "chance" of a unique hazard requiring a role/skill response.... to a system of rolling for events (both good and bad) and aquiring automatic (yikes!) yet delayed fatigue. It appears the map has been consolidated and simplified from 10 mile hexes to 20 mile hexes (probably to tie one hex to one day of travel), and various terrain types have been generalized into "normal" and hard. The one wildcard seems to be perilous regions that force more events and more fatigue on you to pass through.

First, the things I like:

1. I love how they've moved in an AiME type direction of having BOTH good and bad events, with free lands weighting the roll towards good and dark lands weighting the roll towards bad. Perilous areas representing a high level of danger are good too, really anything that makes the landscape and journey more distinct and memorable (and dangeorus when appropriate). I really hope they continue the excellent tradition of providing thematic and unique "pre-canned thematic events" for certain areas in supplements and adventure modules. Some of the unique hazards that really added unique theme and atmosphere to specific regions was one of my favorite parts of the entier 1st edition system.

2. They really cleaned up the system of selecting a target and specifying a consequence. I really like how you physically roll events along the route so it feels like you are actually marching and making progress.

Now for my concerns:

3. I'm concerned that the map is going to feel crowded and lose a lot of granularity going to 20 mile hexes, and less distinction between terrain types. Honestly, I thought the 1 ed maps were beautiful and perfect how they were, and I'm wary of changes being made to something that was already near perfection. I'm always annoyed by how most RPGs just handwave away maps and travel, and this is something that really makes TOR special so it's essential to be done right. Hopefully the addition of perilous regions offsets the risk of making the map too bland and generalized.

4. Skills for roles. Mechanically, this is probably a really good thing having two applicable skills for every role... it opens up a greater diversity of skills and characters to be useful in travel. Thematically, I hate it. It seems to me like one skill should be the primary (Travel/Hunting/Exploring/Awareness) and the other should only be supplementary (Lore/Athletics/Craft????/Scan). First of all, it feels to me like something like hunting is diluted if a good athlete is just as effective at hunting as a good hunter is. Now hunting is less special and feels watered down. I can think of an occasional circumstance where scanning a bush might be as useful as good awareness, but 99% of the time, Awareness is what a lookout needs more than an upclose scan. I think that might be immersion breaking if a good scanner who's good at finding traps and library books is an equally effective scout as someone who is very alert. And craft? I mean I guess being able to repair a wheel or fix a horseshoe could be useful in very situational cases, but equal to a good explorer? Again, I can maybe see the occasional scouting even where crafting something might be useful, but seems silly that a good shoemaker or woodworker is an equal scout to a good explorer. This is bothering me so much, I'm already considering how to houserule this to make it more thematically satisfying. I'm thinking maybe give the option to roll the secondary skill, and success adds a die to the primary, failure subtracts one? (meaning if you pass your athletics check, you are able to run fast and better able to stalk the deer, that line of thinking?) IDK... but when I'm already trying to houserule something off of the Alpha version of rules, that's usually a sign that something is off.

5. Like many others, I'm concerned about the fatigue dump at the end of a journey, both mechanically and thematically. Mechanically, you go from hale to can't carry your shield just when you probably most need it. Thematically, does this even make sense?

Anyway, both good and bad here... curious what others' thoughts are?
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Wed 07 Jul 2021, 05:21

I swore not to comment anymore until the next release of the rules but here goes...

1. No mention of boats. Why?

2. Fatigue Dump at end seems like it's just to avoid unnecessary bookkeeping, seeing as most of the time Fatigue doesn't have any impact on Journey Events. However, I don't see it being too hard to just add up the Journey Fatigue accumulated for all Events up to the current one if needed for a particular mid-journey Event. [EDIT] Revising my statement - I suppose some heroes will be get away with not being Weary when making Event Skill tests due to the end-of-journey Fatigue Dump so if that's annoying, just tot up the Fatigue accumulated before making the test.

3. Choice of Skill of Targeted Player-hero like Craft etc. doesn't seem too bad as the Loremaster is supposed to improvise the scene based on the Skill chosen. If the player wants to test Craft, then you could just come up with something related to that (one of the hero's backpacks is damaged and has to be fixed, a horse has lost a shoe, a makeshift shelter from the rain has to be built, etc).

4. It sounds like the player journal-map is a hex map now whereas in 1e it had no hexes and was thus a bit more thematic.

5. I just hope the (so far unseen) 2e map is beautiful as well as functional.
 
User avatar
aramis
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri 14 Jun 2019, 20:34
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Wed 07 Jul 2021, 07:38

2E eliminates 1E's biggest flaw: in 1E, the number of players mattered for number of encounters, as the function of encounters was 1 per Sauron rolled, and everyone rolled travel every X days.

In 2E, the number of encounters are a function of distance and leader's travel skill, which is as it should be.
I'll note that the fatigue is added at end of each encounter resolution, not end of journey, as it's part of step 3 of events. (p 115)

End of journey is when you reduce the accumulated by individual travel rolls. (112) More correctly, the first prolonged rest after ending the journey.

I like it on a first and second read basis, and, assuming it does what it appears to, will mean having a guide with Travel 4+ comes close to assuring success, and thus 1 encounter per 3 hexes instead of 2, and often 1 per 4...

As for boats... easily adapted. just change the hexes per day ratio.
—————————————————————————
Smith & Wesson: the original point and click interface...
 
Mythicos
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 16 Jun 2020, 03:46

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Wed 07 Jul 2021, 16:04

2E eliminates 1E's biggest flaw: in 1E, the number of players mattered for number of encounters, as the function of encounters was 1 per Sauron rolled, and everyone rolled travel every X days.

In 2E, the number of encounters are a function of distance and leader's travel skill, which is as it should be.
I'll note that the fatigue is added at end of each encounter resolution, not end of journey, as it's part of step 3 of events. (p 115)

End of journey is when you reduce the accumulated by individual travel rolls. (112) More correctly, the first prolonged rest after ending the journey.

I like it on a first and second read basis, and, assuming it does what it appears to, will mean having a guide with Travel 4+ comes close to assuring success, and thus 1 encounter per 3 hexes instead of 2, and often 1 per 4...

As for boats... easily adapted. just change the hexes per day ratio.

Thanks for the remarks re: when Fatigue is gained. I had completely misread that, and I think I wasn't alone in this.

Agreed with your other remarks. The main gains for me are: (1) Travel is still very important, but is not the über-skill it was in 1st ed.; (2) The number of tests made is greatly reduced.

I suspect boats weren't included in the core rules because Eriador is not a region where boat-travel on great distances is as important as it was in Wilderland with the Anduin river.
 
Otaku-sempai
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed 15 Apr 2020, 15:35
Location: Western New York

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Wed 07 Jul 2021, 16:28

I suspect boats weren't included in the core rules because Eriador is not a region where boat-travel on great distances is as important as it was in Wilderland with the Anduin river.
I share your concern regarding skills becoming diluted. You might be correct about the omission of Journey rules regarding boats, though that seems short-sighted if true.
#FideltyToTolkien
 
User avatar
Aiden Harrison
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun 18 Apr 2021, 09:49

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Wed 07 Jul 2021, 17:22

So I've just finished my first read through of the alpha book, (still wrapping my head around things).

On first viewing I think I like the new journey rules... hard to say for sure without seeing what the map looks like. How many areas are going to be considered perilous I wonder? I like the idea of using a journey long, intrigue as to what exactly that will look like.

I like the changes to fatigue accumulation and the use of Travel as a skill that is important but not Uber important.

As regards to the expansion of skills a player in a company role can use, I sorta like it in that more skills get used; but at the same time I'm not sure about the player always picking which skill to use... seems a little off that someone can fill the hunter role without having hunting as a skill (but a great athletics) and still be an as viable as someone who has a great hunting skill.

Not sure what a good solution would be. Perhaps having a Primary Skill and a secondary skill for each Role. With some kind of a random roll to decide which is used (you could even have a mechanic where a non Role skill is used occasionally - Such as Enhearten or Song to raise spirits for example.

As to changing it to events rather than hazards only - that is a good change (been doing it for awhile).

I did notice that the Dangerous Meetings result was removed (as well as several other options) Do you think these are to be expanded on in the special Journey Events Tables based on specific Perilous Areas mention in the Perilous areas box? I hope so.
Although the more I think about it - Maybe the Eye of Sauron rules sort of replace those... hmm rather than being added on top as they were in first edition.

Anyway just a few random thoughts.
 
User avatar
jthurn
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon 01 Jun 2020, 17:58

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Wed 07 Jul 2021, 19:49

The new rules are almost identical to how I and some other Loremasters have run journeys for years now. I also use the Hobbit Tales cards to generate events. I can say that 1E rules versus my home brewed ones made the biggest difference in terms of player engagement and enjoyment. With 2E using the same ideas as a base it will be a lot easier to tweak things.
 
MDuckworth83
Topic Author
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue 06 Jul 2021, 03:32

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Thu 08 Jul 2021, 00:04


In 2E, the number of encounters are a function of distance and leader's travel skill, which is as it should be.
I'll note that the fatigue is added at end of each encounter resolution, not end of journey, as it's part of step 3 of events. (p 115)

End of journey is when you reduce the accumulated by individual travel rolls. (112) More correctly, the first prolonged rest after ending the journey.

That's a great catch! I totally missed that too! I like that way better!

I'm coming around to journey rules.... but need to see the map next to say much more.
 
MDuckworth83
Topic Author
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue 06 Jul 2021, 03:32

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Thu 08 Jul 2021, 00:14



As regards to the expansion of skills a player in a company role can use, I sorta like it in that more skills get used; but at the same time I'm not sure about the player always picking which skill to use... seems a little off that someone can fill the hunter role without having hunting as a skill (but a great athletics) and still be an as viable as someone who has a great hunting skill.

Not sure what a good solution would be. Perhaps having a Primary Skill and a secondary skill for each Role. With some kind of a random roll to decide which is used (you could even have a mechanic where a non Role skill is used occasionally - Such as Enhearten or Song to raise spirits for example.

As to changing it to events rather than hazards only - that is a good change (been doing it for awhile).

I did notice that the Dangerous Meetings result was removed (as well as several other options) Do you think these are to be expanded on in the special Journey Events Tables based on specific Perilous Areas mention in the Perilous areas box? I hope so.
Although the more I think about it - Maybe the Eye of Sauron rules sort of replace those... hmm rather than being added on top as they were in first edition.

Anyway just a few random thoughts.
Yeah, I think you did a better job summing up what was bothering me. You get a high athletic character in the group and suddenly the hunting skill is not needed, that character will just "hunt" on high athletics everytime. Since athletics is probably more generally useful than hunting, it sort of obsoletes and erases the distinction of the hunting skill. This strikes me as the type of move made for mechanical reasons at the cost of theme. I get that it is supposed to allow a greater range of characters to be good at traveling, but it comes at the price of devaluing the skills that are fairly specific to travel. Is there any case where a character wouldn't just choose the one he's better at every time?
 
RichKarp
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 19:37

Re: New Journey System - yay or nay?

Fri 09 Jul 2021, 04:10

I kind of hate how journeys are handled now. Now I have to admit, there was plenty of room for improvement on 1e and I wasn’t using RAW travel (for starters, I knew exactly which Hazards I would use and usually the only issue was when, prompted by Eye rolls). And the switch to one hex a day makes me wonder why it wasn’t always that way.

But the loss of corruption and blighted lands is a huge loss. The doubling of skill applicability dramatically lessens their value (but, probably HAD to be done because the new TNs tied to attributes offer fewer viable party skill combinations!) the lack of season/terrain impact makes the entire map feel very generic. I feel like there’s been a loss of some character of the journey itself, especially if each region or area doesn’t have its own table. While it’s easily replaceable and flexed, again it’s just kind of something I would have hoped I wouldn’t have needed to actively fix myself from the RAW this time.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Otaku-sempai and 5 guests