Dorjcal
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: TNs for starting character

Thu 05 Aug 2021, 18:53

From my point of view, the TN (20-Attribute) isn't too high. As Francesco put it: You don't always need to roll. And if you do, usually not the whole group rolls, but the Hero, who is actually good at it.

Well and then there are useful items and Hope.

In the end, if you roll, it should be challenging, otherwise you wouldn't roll.

Same. We already had 3 sessions and no one complained so far.
Different character are better at different things, and it works. It came naturally without any pre-arrangement between players.
Everyone played their own character as they liked the most.
 
RichKarp
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 19:37

Re: TNs for starting character

Sat 07 Aug 2021, 21:57

Guys, the idea that characters have different areas of expertise is basically irrelevant to the arguments that have been made about TNs being too punishing. That statement will almost always be true - and it isn’t like I oppose character specializations. Rather, one of the reasons I do not like it is because characters’ specializations are determined by their Attributes more rigidly than they were in 1e. Skill still counts for more than the TN increment, so I don’t want to overstate the matter, but in the past a character could more evenly specialize across different Skills across all of the Attributes (say Lore AND Athletics, or Courtesy AND Song, or Survival AND Battle) which is now much harder to balance without accepting generally lower proficiency across the board.

In other words: specialization is more tied to the game stats, something I find unfortunate because of the arbitrary assignment of the Skills to their Attributes (what makes Song more strongly tied to Body than to Wits or Heart, anyway…?) It doesn’t make much thematic sense to me and it costs characters who want to specialize differently (not that they want to be good at EVERYTHING).

RE: the raising TN to Eye Awareness, this is how my game currently is house ruled for 1e. I think I’m the one who mentioned it because I found it a nice way to balance my own campaign, where more experienced characters have access to magical items and are more powerful; high Eye Awareness generated by their gear (and their High Elf) essentially kicks the game into hard mode with +4 TNs (non combat rolls only). So there are good ways to handle skill progression that doesn’t need to be frustrating or unforgiving, especially to brand new players.
 
User avatar
aramis
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri 14 Jun 2019, 20:34
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: TNs for starting character

Mon 09 Aug 2021, 10:14


Francesco has noted that the change in TNs was in part to take pressure off the LM. I sure feel much less pressured having to make use of multiple different mechanics to make a test challenging rather than letting my players know “it’s TN14 unless I tell you otherwise”
it's put more time taken to resolve tasks for me and mine. Moving hope to after roll (and a TN change instead of extra dice) has actually sped up play vs stock.
Worse, the 2a system actually resulted in my needing to track the players TN's, since they often don't process it well. Even more so in combat. The stock combat for 2Alpha took us twice as long as did 1E. Moving hope to after sped up play instantly. Moving adversaries to their own TN also sped up play - not as much as a GM Set would, but it wasn't GM set in 1E combat, either (as it was stance + Protection).
Plus, there's more sheet referencing - not a huge issue, but it adds up. Especially when combat hits.

So, from my point of view, Francesco missed the mark on that score.
—————————————————————————
Smith & Wesson: the original point and click interface...
 
Dorjcal
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: TNs for starting character

Mon 09 Aug 2021, 11:24


Francesco has noted that the change in TNs was in part to take pressure off the LM. I sure feel much less pressured having to make use of multiple different mechanics to make a test challenging rather than letting my players know “it’s TN14 unless I tell you otherwise”
it's put more time taken to resolve tasks for me and mine. Moving hope to after roll (and a TN change instead of extra dice) has actually sped up play vs stock.
Worse, the 2a system actually resulted in my needing to track the players TN's, since they often don't process it well. Even more so in combat. The stock combat for 2Alpha took us twice as long as did 1E. Moving hope to after sped up play instantly. Moving adversaries to their own TN also sped up play - not as much as a GM Set would, but it wasn't GM set in 1E combat, either (as it was stance + Protection).
Plus, there's more sheet referencing - not a huge issue, but it adds up. Especially when combat hits.

So, from my point of view, Francesco missed the mark on that score.

Strong disagree. You literally have a huge big number on top of your skills. Can´t be that hard.
My players maybe thought about it in the first 5 min of the first session but that was it.

You don´t really need to track their TN because generally only ONE person is supposed to solve the task per RAW.
You know what your player should be able to do reasonably. Those are automatic success. For those in doubt it is a roll, no much drama.


Also, how can hope after roll speed up? Right now you just need to add 1 or more die to your roll, can´t take much time, can it?
 
Mattcapiche
Topic Author
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 12:25

Re: TNs for starting character

Wed 11 Aug 2021, 21:14

Finally got round to my playtest last night, having planned a month ago. We played The Marsh Bell, almost literally translated using 2e rules, using the 1e pregens again translated across.

The TNs weren't as jarring as I expected, and being able to award extra dice flowed nicely, but the higher TNs still felt extremely punishing. This was compounded further when in unfavourable conditions.

It also became apparent that being trained to 3+ dice is actually much less of a boon than in 1e, because it can be easily counteracted by a couple extra points on the TN. Even with 3 in persuade, our Barding consistently failed checks because of his TN.

Hope wasn't used as freely as it could have been, but I think that was partly because the players didn't feel like it would make a huge amount of difference. Next time I will have to push them to make more use of this currency.

One thing that I hadn't accounted for was how almost impossible it is for starting characters to pass a valour or wisdom test. They're only going to have 1 success die, and at least a TN of 12 (most likely a lot higher). This makes it more obvious as to why travel corruption tests aren't a thing anymore, but it's is exceedingly difficult for a starting character to pass these tests at all.

Overall, I'm less concerned that I was, but still dissapointed with how this plays early game. Next time I'm planning on purpose building characters a bit more and seeing if that makes a difference.

P.s. Trolls seem much more threatening this time around!
 
User avatar
aramis
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri 14 Jun 2019, 20:34
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: TNs for starting character

Wed 18 Aug 2021, 08:05


Francesco has noted that the change in TNs was in part to take pressure off the LM. I sure feel much less pressured having to make use of multiple different mechanics to make a test challenging rather than letting my players know “it’s TN14 unless I tell you otherwise”
it's put more time taken to resolve tasks for me and mine. Moving hope to after roll (and a TN change instead of extra dice) has actually sped up play vs stock.
Worse, the 2a system actually resulted in my needing to track the players TN's, since they often don't process it well. Even more so in combat. The stock combat for 2Alpha took us twice as long as did 1E. Moving hope to after sped up play instantly. Moving adversaries to their own TN also sped up play - not as much as a GM Set would, but it wasn't GM set in 1E combat, either (as it was stance + Protection).
Plus, there's more sheet referencing - not a huge issue, but it adds up. Especially when combat hits.

So, from my point of view, Francesco missed the mark on that score.

Strong disagree. You literally have a huge big number on top of your skills. Can´t be that hard.
My players maybe thought about it in the first 5 min of the first session but that was it.
I can't see my players sheets - they're literally 1625 miles away. And they are not clear about the attribute links, despite alignment on sheet, because they're used to games where the att/skill link varies by task, unlike the fixed link of TOR. (had a similar issue in Alien.) So any result I'm havign to ask them to tell me if they succeeded. Which is something they have yet to make automatic - as it's counter to normal RPG modes of play.
—————————————————————————
Smith & Wesson: the original point and click interface...
 
Dunheved
Posts: 494
Joined: Wed 11 Mar 2020, 02:07
Location: UK

Re: TNs for starting character

Wed 18 Aug 2021, 11:48

And, that is an important difference between those whose regular play experience is 1. face-to-face, in real time, compared to 2. real time but long distance and again, 3. the play by post where several hours can be between each posting and getting a response.


Reading TOR2e through, I got the very strong impression that the revisions were playtested ftf. It's much the quickest way of playing, and permits all sorts of interplay that rarely gets written down in pbp. Even version 2 is real time, and allows greater interplay. In PbP even the interplay has to be separately messaged. I do a lot of Tavern Keeper, where there are breakout boxes for each dialogue that is posted AND an open to all discussion page AND a separate private message system. Such a play style changes the manner of decisions made - more so if you want to be sure that every player has an opportunity to partake.

It may be interesting to note if there is a greater predisposition in favour of some of the changes in TOR2e because a persons experience is ftf. And of course what is most helpful to those who are play by post.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 2 guests