Mattcapiche
Topic Author
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 12:25

Re: TNs for starting character

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 15:33

I also think the new TN system makes it harder to suspend disbelief because by preventing the Loremaster from employing secrecy for success threshold, it can potentially limit my choices. I cannot grant leniency without shattering the illusion that the player succeeded on their own; I cannot make things imperceptibly harder when they are trying to achieve an impact I think should be more difficult. By virtue of the new system, which also requires them to also invest Hope before a roll, they already know how hard a task is and must decide how best to marshal their dice to meet the task.
We generally agree on this topic, but I disagree with you here. As far as I'm concerned with 1e, you shouldn't have been keeping the TNs secret anyway. There's literally a section that talks about everything being TN14, and if you change it you should explain the reason for that change.

Secretly changing the difficulty of the role to make the players succeed or fail is much more a GMing practice discussion than a comparison of these rules, but to summerise- I don't agree with it. If they need to pass or fail then you find a way without calling for a roll, and a roll should only take place where there are consequences. The method of setting a TN has no impact on this.
 
RichKarp
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 19:37

Re: TNs for starting character

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 16:47

We generally agree on this topic, but I disagree with you here.
Yeah and that’s perfectly okay! I appreciate your perspective.

As far as I'm concerned with 1e, you shouldn't have been keeping the TNs secret anyway. There's literally a section that talks about everything being TN14, and if you change it you should explain the reason for that change.

The normative TN 14 as I understand it is the “average” difficulty of a task, rated such that those with significant training in a Skill 3+ pips should be confident in passing. Everything is TN 14 by standard difficulty but, of course there are many circumstances where a basic task is complicated and made harder, and there are some tasks that are just more daunting. I liked the flexibility built into that (which that part of the system, flexing the TN by circumstances, has not changed it’s just shifted to +/- d6s).

I didn’t feel particularly bound to reassure players that a task was always TN 14. If they inquired, I’d let them know “this should be a little harder than normal,” or “that would be a very difficult task.” In practice, I never told them “that’s a TN 18 task.” That would encourage meta-gaming and, frankly, break immersion in the game in my opinion.

Secretly changing the difficulty of the role to make the players succeed or fail is much more a GMing practice discussion than a comparison of these rules, but to summerise- I don't agree with it. If they need to pass or fail then you find a way without calling for a roll, and a roll should only take place where there are consequences. The method of setting a TN has no impact on this.

To quibble, secretly setting a difficulty is different from secretly changing a difficulty on the fly. Failure and success are “real” in my games, it isn’t as though I am constantly putting my hands on the scales so that they succeed or fail. However, I absolutely reserve the right to do that as the game runner. I think for a few reasons that’s valuable:

1. As a corrective if I have made a mistake (not the player). It’s possible I misjudged the math behind a difficulty, and upon momentary reflection I judge that this roll either shouldn’t have been called or it should be well within this character’s ability, something like that.

2. To reward a player whose efforts reflect a wonderful story innovation but whose agency is reduced/constrained by the rules of the game. (IE They would have been able to slay the dragon, if only they could spend Hope, and their roll is within 1 point of success/failure. Or if their solution to a sensitive issue is brilliant and innovative, but their poor skill would make success mathematically very unlikely.)

3. To speed along an inevitable result, especially in combat. Once an outcome has become a foregone conclusion, there is no need to prolong an engagement if players are certain to triumph and/or fudging a roll considerably shortens a combat whose meaningful choices are basically over (this is less prevalent in TOR because the suddenness of piercing blows can make combat interesting and dangerous until late in the battle).

I agree with you that it is the game runner’s job to make sure all rolls are meaningful, and that tilting the scales shouldn’t be the norm. But I don’t think it is an inherently bad practice; knowing when to tilt things to ensure interesting outcomes and correct mistakes on-the-fly seems like an important aspect of running a roleplaying game to me. I don’t really believe the purist idea that the dice always inject just the perfect amount of randomness and nothing more or less. Dice can in fact disappoint players - they must sometimes, in order to make them suspend their disbelief. That is both an advantage and a disadvantage to their use, as opposed to a diceless system that preserves perfect choice and intentionality, but which tend to lose the randomness factor from which many players derive satisfaction.

Preserving the story and suspense values of uncertainty is therefore important to me. It isn’t so much about cooking the books for/against players on particular rolls, but ensuring that they have a narrative experience which is seamless and cohesive. If I have to pop the hood on the target for every roll, I lose some control over that. I prefer to have as much responsibility on myself for the overall player experience, not entrust everything purely to math.
 
gyrovague
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: TNs for starting character

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 20:33

One place secret TNs can (or could) work well is in social encounters, where the heroes might not be aware of which approaches would be most effective with the loremaster character. And I don't mean that for "realism" reasons but for purely gamist reasons: if you don't know which approaches are most effective, you won't know which skills to use. That creates two opportunities:
1) You can pay close attention to your rolls and whether or not they succeed, and use that to inform further decisions
2) You can spend your turn trying to learn something about the NPC (this works best if there's a cost associated with it, the equivalent of "not taking an attack") in order to figure out what the best strategy is.

All of which results, imo, in richer play than just "use your best social skill; rinse; repeat". But an important aspect is that finding out the TN is part of the mini-game. What doesn't work is: "How hard is it to jump the chasm?" "Pretty hard." "Yeah, but what TN?" "Jump and I'll tell you." It's hard to make informed decisions if you don't have the information.
 
RichKarp
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 19:37

Re: TNs for starting character

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 21:37

Gyrovague: That is precisely one way which I use them. Certain NPCs are more easily influenced using certain skills, and telling players which skills to use would significantly diminish both the challenge and the creativity required in social scenes. They should be able to intuit that Riddle is more likely to impress Gandalf, Awe less likely; or that Courtesy is not as important with Beorn then with Elrond. And learning that through play is half the fun.

Also, we shouldn’t pretend that opaque difficulty checks are completely outside of my players’ realm of understanding. It isn’t like the scale here (12-20) is such a wide variance and what they are generally trying to attempt so outside the box that “hard” or “very hard” is too complicated for them to guess 15-17 or 18+ respectively. I think the highest TN I ever set was when they wanted to do something New Line Cinema outrageous like jump on the dragon’s back, and I told them it would be near miraculous if the player succeeded (which he did, btw) and it was ~TN 24 if I recall.

It is only “too hard to divine” maybe for a relatively few sessions. By ten or more sessions into the campaign, they and I both had a good sense for the actual target numbers, and in practice I sometimes wouldn’t withhold actual TN during combat to ease speed of play.
 
gyrovague
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: TNs for starting character

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 23:02

I think the highest TN I ever set was when they wanted to do something New Line Cinema outrageous like jump on the dragon’s back, and I told them it would be near miraculous if the player succeeded (which he did, btw) and it was ~TN 24 if I recall.
In a case like that I would just give them the TN because we (the player and I) may have different definitions of what "near miraculous" means. I might be thinking "1 in a million" and the player might be thinking "5%". Sharing the TN is just a shorthand way of making sure the player and the LM are both picturing the same thing. And, unlike in the Council example, discovering the TN isn't part of the decision-making.
 
Mattcapiche
Topic Author
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 12:25

Re: TNs for starting character

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 23:25

I think the highest TN I ever set was when they wanted to do something New Line Cinema outrageous like jump on the dragon’s back, and I told them it would be near miraculous if the player succeeded (which he did, btw) and it was ~TN 24 if I recall.
In a case like that I would just give them the TN because we (the player and I) may have different definitions of what "near miraculous" means. I might be thinking "1 in a million" and the player might be thinking "5%". Sharing the TN is just a shorthand way of making sure the player and the LM are both picturing the same thing. And, unlike in the Council example, discovering the TN isn't part of the decision-making.
This is exactly the reason the different levels of check difficulty were given names (daunting for example), so you could more narratively convey the difficulty without word for word stating the TN. Anyone who bothered to read the book knew what you meant, but (in my opinion) was no way immersion breaking.

I don’t think it’s possible to successfully employ a form of meta currency in a game while also keeping difficulties hidden. It my opinion is likely coloured by my experience playing a lot of 2d20 games such as Star Trek Adventures. My players never have an issue with this breaking their immersion because it becomes an after thought, justified by the characters having an idea of how difficult a task is going to be to complete.
 
MDuckworth83
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue 06 Jul 2021, 03:32

Re: TNs for starting character

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 03:06

I think secret TNs are sort of a D&D thing that's been bred into the (probable) majority of us who cut our teeth on that system. TOR seems like it's always been more up front about it's TNs.

But if you must have them, you can still play it out exactly like 1e (even use the same terminology). For example in the aforementioned social example, a riddle check with Gandalf could gain +1d while an awe check might penalize -1d. You could let the character know "after" they have made the decision, and require a successful insight check to discern which approaches work best (giving more power to the now nerfed insight skill thanks to no more preliminary rolls).
 
RichKarp
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 19:37

Re: TNs for starting character

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 04:22

I mean… you “could” do a lot of things in any pen and paper game. That doesn’t mean it is optimal to have to house rule it. In general, knowing the TN you need to hit introduces a level of transparency that makes secrecy harder. You cannot impose -1d after a roll has been made, so timing it would be key, and it tips that there is a penalty on the roll.

Again speaking in generalizations here, but I would prefer the changes in 2e really do one of two things: either make the game more flexible, or make the mechanics more tightly tied to the narrative themes, which is where a lot of the 1e core rules really shine IMHO.

If you can do one of those things potentially better, I’m on board. Journeys show some promise with a few additions or future supplements. Councils right now are pretty weak sauce. I am in rebellion over Attribute-tied TNs and Hope. Right now I don’t think either of these rolling mechanic changes serve those purposes better than they did before.
 
Dunheved
Posts: 494
Joined: Wed 11 Mar 2020, 02:07
Location: UK

Re: TNs for starting character

Thu 05 Aug 2021, 14:19

It's been a while since I looked at this thread, but one contributor suggested a nice comment about life operating " before the shadow deepens" (as close as I can remember).

The thread says TN for starting characters , and there is a lot that says a starting character either has it "tough" or " too tough" . It goes on to debate in depth and in quality the consequences of this toughness.

I like the " before the Shadow deepens" idea. Think of the tone of the Hobbit: pretty jolly. Then compare how things are comical for the intro to FOTR, until the Black Riders appear. Then the tone deepens further after Weathertop. And deeper again after Moria (Spoiler: in Moria, somebody actually dies!). By the time Sam's holiday trip reaches Mordor , things are really looking miserable, and even dangerous.

Why not tie the base TN to the Eye of Mordor mechanic? Beginning adventurers and early Companies do not face such a difficult time, because they are not as deep in the Shadow.

OR

As the threat of Mordor grows, the TN generator becomes steeper. Any other event that has a similar global effect can have a tougher standard. (the Fell winter? TN is 22 - Attribute, only the toughest go out!)
Bilbo's adventure? TN = 17 - Attribute.
Sauron declares again TN = 20 - Attribute (i.e. Alpha RAW)
The War of the Ring TN = 22 - Attribute
After the demise of Sauron TN = 16 - Attribute .. Allowing simple hobbits to oust Saruman from the Shire.

I know this might appear to be like the TOR1e rules on different Shadow lands, but it depends on timing and events, not on Geography and previous History. Allowing a LM to start a campaign in a softer time if they want.
 
Sebastian
Posts: 246
Joined: Thu 01 Oct 2020, 04:58

Re: TNs for starting character

Thu 05 Aug 2021, 14:41

From my point of view, the TN (20-Attribute) isn't too high. As Francesco put it: You don't always need to roll. And if you do, usually not the whole group rolls, but the Hero, who is actually good at it.

Well and then there are useful items and Hope.

In the end, if you roll, it should be challenging, otherwise you wouldn't roll.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests