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Asrath
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Balance of Distinctive Features and Useful Items

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 04:35

I struggle with the balance of Distinctive Features and Useful Items:
If I get the new rules correctly, a trait (1ed) is no longer an automatic success. Instead a Distinctive Feature has no effect, until a point of hope is spent, which adds 2d6 to a roll instead of just 1d6.
A Useful Item on the other hand gives an additional 1d6 to every roll, where the item can be used, without spending hope. That can be very mighty if the item can be used in many ways.
On my first impression I find Distinctive Features too weak now, Useful Items to strong. Especially if you take into consideration, that rich cultures have many useful items, while poor cultures don't have even one.

What do you think?
Last edited by Asrath on Thu 01 Jul 2021, 08:19, edited 1 time in total.
 
Mythicos
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Re: Balance of Distinctive Features and Useful Items

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 04:54

Pretty sure a single useful item can only be linked to a single skill.

So theoretically less often useful than a Distinctive Feature.
 
gyrovague
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Re: Balance of Distinctive Features and Useful Items

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 06:04

Still, I feel there should be some kind of gating factor (limited uses, potential risk, etc.) to using useful items to gain the 1d. I foresee players invoking their item EVERY time they use the related skill.
 
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Asrath
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Re: Balance of Distinctive Features and Useful Items

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 08:41

Sure a useful item is linked to a specific skill. Still, depending on the item, it might be used every time the skill is used. The example items in the alpha rules show some variety here. E.g. the set of maps (Explore) is only useful in that area, so there is some limitation. Or the sun-stone to navigate in bad weather (Travel) only helps in bad weather. But there are also items that are usable more generously. A musical instrument (Song) or some clothing for Awe might be used with every roll in that skill. I'm sure the players will be very creative to find good items, which is fine.
Distinctive Features, of which everybody has some, are limited by Hope. In 1ed Hope was very limited. I don't know if that is still so in 2ed.
Useful items cost no points of Hope and will probably be used in the game much more often, I suppose. And I'm afraid the richer cultures get a great advantage here.
 
Mythicos
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Re: Balance of Distinctive Features and Useful Items

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 13:40

Still, I feel there should be some kind of gating factor (limited uses, potential risk, etc.) to using useful items to gain the 1d. I foresee players invoking their item EVERY time they use the related skill.

I personaly have no problem with this. I think it's part of the mechanical balancing act: TNs for starting Player-Heroes will be higher than in 1st ed., Hope has to be spent before the roll, etc.
 
gyrovague
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Re: Balance of Distinctive Features and Useful Items

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 19:20

Still, I feel there should be some kind of gating factor (limited uses, potential risk, etc.) to using useful items to gain the 1d. I foresee players invoking their item EVERY time they use the related skill.

I personaly have no problem with this. I think it's part of the mechanical balancing act: TNs for starting Player-Heroes will be higher than in 1st ed., Hope has to be spent before the roll, etc.
I doubt the intent was intentional, mathematically analyzed balance. If so, it seems odd that the differential is so great based on Standard of Living. If it's gamed to be usable on every roll of a skill, then Rich cultures effectively get a bonus skill point on four skills, even if those skills already have multiple ranks. Applied to four skills of rank 2, that's kind of like 48 free skill points....48 bonus hours of gameplay...for a starting character. What does a Poor culture get to balance this?

In any event, I was coming back to the thread to post this thought: I was imagining a blacksmithing hammer as a Useful Item to gain +1d6 to Craft attempts, at least when smithing is involved. For a character concept involving smithing, it seems perfect. Except....that makes no sense to me. Without a hammer you can't really blacksmith at all, so to give a free skill point because you have a hammer feels wrong. The LM might rule that you roll as if Weary (and/or Ill-favoured) if you don't have the proper equipment. But, even so, this doesn't add up: if you walk into a fully equipped smithy, why does the fact that you brought your own hammer give you +1d6? That makes it not just a "useful" item, but a "special" (even magical) item.

I do like the flavor of Useful Items. I like that my blacksmith character carries around his own, special hammer. ("There are many cross-peen hammers, but this one is mine.") It's just that the mechanical impact seems too powerful.
 
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Harlath
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Re: Balance of Distinctive Features and Useful Items

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 20:20

While there's a wealth gap at the start, successful adventurers can grow their wealth and increase their access to mounts/Useful Items (p72-p73 and p121).

We don't have any Rich or Poor cultures yet, so the largest starting gap is Prosperous (3 items) v Frugal (1 item).

90 Treasure in to the game, the gap narrows, as the Frugal PC goes from 0->90 = Prosperous (3 items) while the Prosperous PC is now Rich (4 items).
 
gyrovague
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Re: Balance of Distinctive Features and Useful Items

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 20:26

While there's a wealth gap at the start, successful adventurers can grow their wealth and increase their access to mounts/Useful Items (p72-p73 and p121).

We don't have any Rich or Poor cultures yet, so the largest starting gap is Prosperous (3 items) v Frugal (1 item).

90 Treasure in to the game, the gap narrows, as the Frugal PC goes from 0->90 = Prosperous (3 items) while the Prosperous PC is now Rich (4 items).
1) Presumably there *will* be Rich and Poor cultures.
2) It's still pretty big difference early in the game. Beginning Prosperous cultures still have the equivalent of 24 free Skill Points, relative to beginning Frugal cultures. Potentially a lot more if their items correspond to rank 3 skills.
 
Dunkelbrink
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Re: Balance of Distinctive Features and Useful Items

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 23:04

I like the concept of useful items too, but agree with you that they seem too powerful now, and that there is no (apparent) advantage for frugal cultures to make up for the greater number of items richer cultures get (for example extra skills to start with). As now, prosperous cultures are simply "better", and the standard of living has a much clearer advantage compared to the usefulness in 1ed.

In the Laketown supplement in 1ed you could buy items on the market as an undertaking, and those quality items added a bonus of +1 (not 1d) to relevant skill checks. This bonus could be raised to +2 at most. That kind of bonus is to me a more fitting bonus for a useful, but not magical, item that does not affect game balance as much. The designers seem to have got rid of number bonuses this time (every bonus or penalty is counted in 1d, 2d etc).
 
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Ronshanks
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Re: Balance of Distinctive Features and Useful Items

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 23:25

I like that the designers are trying to solve the Treasure issue, which for my group was "What do we use all of this for?" Besides raising Cultural Standing, 1E didn't really have a great answer to that question.

I agree that the useful items seem a bit too powerful. A +1 or +2 to specific skill rolls like Dunkelbrink mentions would seem fair to me, but it does seem that the designers want to simplify bonuses as +1 or more dice. I think the way I will navigate this is by making the useful items very specific -- a fishing rod adds a die to Athletics or Hunting tests when fishing only; a fur-lined travel cloak adds a die to Travel tests during the fall/winter only; a worn circlet could add a die to Awe tests for a specific culture only. That will still make them useful and temper concerns about player abuse. It also creates more variety/incentive for players to find and collect/purchase a greater variety of items so that they might even create 'loadouts' by choosing which items to bring based on what they consider relevant for particular adventures.

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