gyrovague
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Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 19 Jul 2021, 01:36

Loremasters out there want to run an epic, place the One Ring in your treasure tables, as you manipulate the Song for your own evil purposes.
So many snarky responses spring to mind, but as Clint Eastwood keeps saying in Unforgiven, "I'm not like that anymore."

Instead I'll just say that if that's your honest characterization of a preference for the old Hope mechanic, I don't really think there's any point in engaging. Good luck to you. Happy gaming.
 
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Warduke
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Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 19 Jul 2021, 02:53

On my second read through of the rules, I noticed that it states "Hope is a pool of points representing the reserve of spiritual vigor", much different than what I remember it being. Perhaps I am getting too old or confusing it with 1e. This would throw it into a different light in my eyes.
 
RichKarp
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Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 19 Jul 2021, 03:29

This is kind of why I think it better to say the Hope mechanic “is evocative” of Tolkien’s themes in Lord of the Rings, rather than that “it is” magic / fate / the Will of Eru. I think there are multiple valid interpretations… I do not think it’s just the Stamina bar from Skyrim.

Clearly there were themes that Francesco wanted to bring forward - and successfully did so. I think it would be weird to assume that in the 2nd Edition he no longer intended it to serve the same purpose. Obviously, the mechanics of employing Hope have shifted, but I think it’s actually even more clear from before in the Magical Results that Hope is meant to serve the same narrative function as before, even though more mundane uses have been tacked on to it. The discordance of that approach is one of the reasons I think myself and others have raised an eyebrow.
 
gyrovague
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Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 19 Jul 2021, 05:28

The discordance of that approach is one of the reasons I think myself and others have raised an eyebrow.
Yes. As I said upthread, if I were playing a character with an option for Magical success I would *never* spend a point of Hope the regular way. Not only is Magical success mathematically a much better investment, it will also be at least 13.7 (according to my calculations) times more fun to use.

And, for exactly that reason, I would only play characters with some kind of Magical success option, and thus never take any options that grant Inspired, which has absolutely no function in the game if you spend all your Hope on Magical successes. Which means, as a corollary, that if you have Magical successes your distinctive features also serve no (mechanical) purpose.*

That chain reaction, moreso than simply liking after-the-roll bonuses or the thematic underpinnings, is why I will houserule Hope. The default mechanic has to be at least as cool as the Magical success mechanic.

*Don't get me wrong: I would still have fun choosing and roleplaying distinctive features. It would just be a shame for them to have no mechanical impact.
 
Davi
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Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 19 Jul 2021, 05:37

The discordance of that approach is one of the reasons I think myself and others have raised an eyebrow.
Yes. As I said upthread, if I were playing a character with an option for Magical success I would *never* spend a point of Hope the regular way. Not only is Magical success mathematically a much better investment, it will also be at least 13.7 (according to my calculations) times more fun to use.

And, for exactly that reason, I would only play characters with some kind of Magical success option, and thus never take any options that grant Inspired, which has absolutely no function in the game if you spend all your Hope on Magical successes. Which means, as a corollary, that if you have Magical successes your distinctive features also serve no (mechanical) purpose.*

That chain reaction, moreso than simply liking after-the-roll bonuses or the thematic underpinnings, is why I will houserule Hope. The default mechanic has to be at least as cool as the Magical success mechanic.

*Don't get me wrong: I would still have fun choosing and roleplaying distinctive features. It would just be a shame for them to have no mechanical impact.
I agree, generally speaking Magical Success is way better usage of Hope, I think the Eye of Mordor rule should be better developed to give some drawback to Magical Success. As every magic comes with a price :-)
 
gyrovague
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Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 19 Jul 2021, 05:49

I agree, generally speaking Magical Success is way better usage of Hope, I think the Eye of Mordor rule should be better developed to give some drawback to Magical Success. As every magic comes with a price :-)
Yeah, nerfing the heck out of Magical Successes would be one (particularly sad) way to restore some kind of equilibrium. Although honestly I'm not sure having it increase Eye Awareness would do it. I'd probably still spend all my Hope that way. Triggering Revelation episodes is fun, after all.
 
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Michele
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Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 19 Jul 2021, 14:00

I will not enter into the debate as to whether Hope should be interpreted as fate, or as a more simple inner reserve of will and spiritual strength, but I am surprised at how many of the contributions take it for granted that it is so much weaker than in the previous edition.

I've run a couple of sessions with the new system, and the impression of everyone at the table is that Hope is definitely less reliable, but also more rewarding. First myth to bust: in two sessions, it never happened that a Skill roll failed after the expenditure of Hope. In all instances, the character who rolled was Inspired, and spending Hope without being Inspired actually felt like a desperate measure, rather than its standard usage. Hope did get wasted on a couple of attack rolls, which weren't Inspired since you can only invoke your Distinctive Feature on Skill rolls (thus Virtues that let you become Inspired on any roll, rather that only on Skill rolls, become quite interesting).

The math actually supports these observations. Adding 2 dice to a roll means adding an average of 7 points to the result: that's the maximum Attribute bonus you could get in 1ed, and on top of that you increase your chance of scoring tengwars. Going from a dice pool of 3d6 to a dice pool of 5d6 means going from a 62% chance of success against TN 15, to a 95% chance of success. It means that your chance of actually wasting that point is just 5%.
What about rolls that would have succeeded anyway? Well, unless you roll a Gandalf rune on the Feat die, you'll never know that. But do you really care? You would have spent that point anyway, since you deemed the roll important. In game practice, all the player has to ask himself before rolling is whether the task is worth spending Hope, and that's it - no calculations, no disappointment in finding out that your Attribute bonus is too low to turn that failure into a success. At my table that was a win, and it actually felt smoother than before. I acknowledge that in other tables, it may not.

The point is not that now Hope may fail, because it could fail also in 1ed (if your Attribute bonus was too low). What seems to cause the most dismay (especially among old players, since new players don't seem concerned at all) is actually that it can now be wasted, but as long as the internal economy of the game supports this (which I currently have some doubts about), I truly don’t see where the problem lies.

And, for exactly that reason, I would only play characters with some kind of Magical success option, and thus never take any options that grant Inspired, which has absolutely no function in the game if you spend all your Hope on Magical successes. Which means, as a corollary, that if you have Magical successes your distinctive features also serve no (mechanical) purpose.

This is a concern I share, but I guess that as Davi wisely said, the drawback of a Magical success may lie in the Eye Awareness rules. I mean, you may use a rifle to kill a mosquito, but a swatter probably causes less collateral damage, right? :D
Also, a Magical success doesn't let you roll additional dice, which may instead be more useful when aiming at scoring more tengwars as possible, rather than simply succeeding.
It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till.
 
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Warduke
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Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 19 Jul 2021, 16:40

The discordance of that approach is one of the reasons I think myself and others have raised an eyebrow.
Yes. As I said upthread, if I were playing a character with an option for Magical success I would *never* spend a point of Hope the regular way. Not only is Magical success mathematically a much better investment, it will also be at least 13.7 (according to my calculations) times more fun to use.

And, for exactly that reason, I would only play characters with some kind of Magical success option, and thus never take any options that grant Inspired, which has absolutely no function in the game if you spend all your Hope on Magical successes. Which means, as a corollary, that if you have Magical successes your distinctive features also serve no (mechanical) purpose.*

That chain reaction, moreso than simply liking after-the-roll bonuses or the thematic underpinnings, is why I will houserule Hope. The default mechanic has to be at least as cool as the Magical success mechanic.

*Don't get me wrong: I would still have fun choosing and roleplaying distinctive features. It would just be a shame for them to have no mechanical impact.
I actually find myself inclined to agree with you on this. As I read through the rules again, I have payed more attention to the issues brought up here.

Magic rolls will be fairly common due to treasure rewards being much more common. I could not see myself ever spending Hope unless it was modified by Magic or Inspiration.

I believe that it has been said here that the developers have said they will make Hope renew every session. This might make it more prone to being "wasted" without modification. This will be a huge change in mindset from 1e, leaning more towards Savage Worlds. Making it a resource that is expected to be spent regularly.

The rules also state that a Magical effect is very noticeable and not subtle at all. This is a major disadvantage that the Loremaster should totally take into account. The characters probably shouldn't use Magic in the Prancing Pony. As mentioned the Shadow notice is a huge disadvantage.

I have yet to run a game. The proof is always in the puddin'. Therefore I will not debate if this makes the game less fun or more fun. That is what RPGs are all about. Those that have run the game have pretty much stated across the board that the game is hell of fun to play.
 
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Harlath
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Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 19 Jul 2021, 16:51

I believe that it has been said here that the developers have said they will make Hope renew every session. This might make it more prone to being "wasted" without modification. This will be a huge change in mindset from 1e, leaning more towards Savage Worlds. Making it a resource that is expected to be spent regularly.
I think it was just potentially making the fellowship pool renew every session (as in 1e) rather than in every fellowship phase (as in alpha 2e).

Source: designer reply on faceboo, https://www.facebook.com/groups/TORLgui ... 7984977552

"That’s a good summary. Actually, we’re considering bringing the refresh of Fellowship points back to per session."
 
Davi
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Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 19 Jul 2021, 17:08

I think Hope is quite powerful as of now, if they increase the amount it could make the game much easier, an inspired hope +2d6 generally makes the chances of success 3-5 times higher. So, I am a little concerned.

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