MDuckworth83
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue 06 Jul 2021, 03:32

Re: The Problem With Hope

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 03:10

How do you think a rule along the lines of the following would work out.

Spend 1 hope to add 1d6 before the roll (2d6 if inspired).
Spend 2 hope to add 1d6 after the roll (2d6 if inspired).

Not quite the same as adding you attribute after the roll, but still... it does give that narrative control back to the player occasionally.

I suppose you could even have:

Spend 3 hope to add your attribute score to the total after the roll.

This would really give the player's that narrative control, though at a steep price.

Food for thought.
I mean that is a viable houserule. Personally, I think Hope 2.0 works pretty well as advertised at this point and it's like the one part of this game I'm "not" fighting the urge to houserule right now! :D
 
RichKarp
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 19:37

Re: The Problem With Hope

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 04:35

See I actually am in the camp where I think it’s crystal clear at this point that something needs to change with Hope in 2e in order to achieve the greater impact I think the designers want it to have.

I mean it’s great that Hope is more available and will less likely be hoarded, but it’s also demonstrably less valuable too. Tying it to Inspiration is good, but doesn’t seem like quite enough. And Hope currently mixes common/utilitarian tasks like “help a friend” with its higher purpose to add bonuses to tasks and achieve Magical results.

It’s a bit muddled from the clear and high value of Hope points in 1e. I don’t know which direction they want to or should modify it, but I think it probably needs to have some unity of purpose regarding what it is used for, and when. Otherwise it’s indistinguishable from Useful Items or any other lever/resource the players can tap to throw more dice into their pool, and therefore far less special than I think it is intended to be.
 
gyrovague
Topic Author
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: The Problem With Hope

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 05:53

You weren't planning on using hope without being inspired now were you? lol.
Multiple people are reporting that they (or their players) felt they had to spend a lot of Hope in combat. In the default case you can't get 2d6 for that. lol.
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: The Problem With Hope

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 07:55

One way I might play it would be as follows...

The Player-hero may spend 1 Hope to add +(1d) to their dice pool, or +(2d) if Inspired.
Alternatively, the Player-hero may hold off spending Hope until AFTER the roll and instead spend 2 Hope to add a flat +4 to the dice result, or +8 if Inspired.

This would give me the "failure is not an option" aspect of 1e that I liked so much, at the cost of an additional 1 Hope, and would give the player a hard choice between going for a potential +6/+12 and 1 or 2 additional Tengwar results at the cost of only 1 Hope versus the lesser +4/+8 guaranteed, no additional Tengwars result AFTER the roll at a cost of 2 Hope.
 
Davi
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon 15 Feb 2021, 04:16

Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 04:24

My beef with 2.0 Hope is mostly about my general dislike of "finite resources spent before the roll to improve chances" regardless of setting/system. But what I do like thematically about after-the-roll is:
1) It gives the player narrative power. They get to decide when their Hope (Faith) makes a difference, not just when it might make a difference.
2) It's 100% clear when it does, not buried in a handful of die.
3) 2.0 has many different ways to add dice to the dice pool, so it makes Hope feel less like the unique thematic underpinning to the setting, and more like just another way to add dice to the pool. (EDIT: And not even the mechanic that necessarily adds the *most* dice. Over the course of an adventure a Useful Item, or even a Pony, might be more impactful.)
Regarding 2) I agree 100% with you, the effect is blurry, my suggestion is using different dice for Hope, so use white for skill, black for hope, red for useful item. After you roll you can narrate differently by reading the impact of each die. This will allow you to see that two 6s from an inspired roll was due to Hope as very much driven by Faith alone.

Regarding point 3) I also agree 100%, but I think it is good for the core Hope rule to be like this, it is much easier to create house rules, or optional rules in a system that is basic. The more complex and differentiated the system is, the more difficult it is to build other rules on it. So, I prefer the RAW to be like 2e, because it allows more room for customization, even making it just like 1e.

I personally don`t agree with 1) because I think the amount o narrative power was similar, the difference is that now it is a power that may be spent to no effect, but the player still has the power to change the narrative (changing a failure into a success), and when Inspired Hope can easily triple or quadruple the chance o success.
 
gyrovague
Topic Author
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 04:47

and when Inspired Hope can easily double or triple the chance o success.
Just a quibble here: although it's true that Hope can "double or triple" your chance of success, if your starting chance is 8.4% you are still most likely going to fail.

The useful metric is the ratio of points spent to failures averted.

If you optimize mathematically (that is, not narratively) and only spend when you will get the most mathematical benefit, then you get a ratio of 2:1. That requires only spending while Inspired, and only doing it in the sweet spot of Skill:TN. (E.g., skill 2 vs TN of 16 or 17.)

But if you spend Hope when you narratively "have to succeed", without regard for the metagame, that can easily be 4 or 5 to 1.
 
Davi
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon 15 Feb 2021, 04:16

Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 04:52

Just a quibble here: although it's true that Hope can "double or triple" your chance of success, if your starting chance is 8.4% you are still most likely going to fail.
Agree, but to futher quibble, if you had a 8.4% chance on 1e, it was also very likelly that Hope would not help you as well. You would not spend it, but still, there was no narrative power for you either. Of course, you might want more narrative power than 1e, which I think is always cool, I just don`t think that 2e gives significant less narrative power to the player regarding Hope rules.
 
gyrovague
Topic Author
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 05:20

Just a quibble here: although it's true that Hope can "double or triple" your chance of success, if your starting chance is 8.4% you are still most likely going to fail.
Agree, but to futher quibble, if you had a 8.4% chance on 1e, it was also very likelly that Hope would not help you as well. You would not spend it, but still, there was no narrative power for you either. Of course, you might want more narrative power than 1e, which I think is always cool, I just don`t think that 2e gives significant less narrative power to the player regarding Hope rules.
I was only talking about the math.
 
Dorjcal
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 12:14

You weren't planning on using hope without being inspired now were you? lol.
Multiple people are reporting that they (or their players) felt they had to spend a lot of Hope in combat. In the default case you can't get 2d6 for that. lol.
Captain with favored ENHEARTEN and bold trait by spending 1 Hope can do quite the trick with Rally Comrades. My player used to roll 4 success die.
Also unexperienced adventurers should use a forward stance to compensate for their lack of skill (which makes sense).

ALSO if player play smart and they describe their intent, they can roll Battle as a secondary action to get extra die.
 
gyrovague
Topic Author
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: The Problem With Hope

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 15:37

Also unexperienced adventurers should use a forward stance to compensate for their lack of skill (which makes sense).
How does it make sense for inexperienced combatants to take greater risks?

"Ok, the four Hobbits take Forward stance. Boromir and I will stay Defensive. We got this."

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