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Asrath
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Councils in TOR 2e

Wed 17 Feb 2021, 23:52

Encounters, now Councils, are the one pillar of the game, where I - as a Loremaster - struggle the most.

At the beginning, as we were new to the game, we were just talking and roleplaying and my players forgot the rolling at all. That’s good and bad. Good for the flow of the story and good for players that are eloquent roleplayers. Bad for players, who play characters, that are much more into talking and debating than themselves. So is a success accomplished by some good roleplaying or by a good roll of the dice?

Both hopefully, so we tried rolling first and then roleplaying the result. That works well during travel & combat. But we still struggle during encounters and I still have to remind my players not to forget the rolling. Hmmm.

Furthermore encounters are - 99% of all times - very easy to succeed. I can’t remember one encounter in our whole campaign, that went bad, so they didn’t accomplish their preset goal. There was no uncertainty like - will we manage to persuade Thranduil to help us?
No tension. Interest on the players side? Yes. Exchange of information? Sure! Hints to understand political aspects or contexts of the story. Absolutely. But no tension whether to reach the goal or not.

Combats have tension and travel hazards add tension, but encounters? At least not in our game. So reflecting this, why shouldn’t I just skip those encounter rules? Still they are one of the three main pillars of the game...

How do you folk handle this?
And will there be a different approach in TOR 2e?
 
gyrovague
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Re: Councils in TOR 2e

Thu 18 Feb 2021, 00:01

When C7 was working on TOR we saw some info on how the new social encounters were going to work, and I remember thinking that it was a big improvement over 1e. Given that Francesco wrote that version, and is doing the same with FL, and owns the game outright either way, I would suspect it's going to be similar.

Alas...I don't remember the specifics now. I would guess something will be forthcoming in the coming weeks/months.

The one thing I tried to remember about encounters (in 1.0) is that exceeding tolerance can mean several things. Narratively it can be the tavernkeep simply needs to attend to other customers, or you have enraged the Goblin King, or anything in between. Mechanically it can mean you can achieve no further successes, or you have lost whatever successes you accumulated, or anything in between. So there was no fixed meaning to exceeding tolerance.

In high stakes encounters I really liked the ones where exceeding tolerance doesn't just mean the encounter is over, but that you've triggered a negative reaction. That requires multiple tiers of successes, so that the players have to weigh whether or not to keep pushing for more successes.
 
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Asrath
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Re: Councils in TOR 2e

Thu 18 Feb 2021, 00:46

One problem I see is that before the group exceeds tolerance it already has accumulated at least some successes.
In the RAW 0-1 successes already give a narrow success of the encounter were 2-3 successes are sufficient for a normal success. That‘s far to low.

Additionally in the encounters I ran, my groups seldom exceeded the tolerance. They saved the rolls with hope where they could... Which is ok.
 
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Falenthal
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Re: Councils in TOR 2e

Thu 18 Feb 2021, 00:51

The short answer, from what I've gotten up to know, is that Councils will work as an extended action:
-The group needs to set very clearly its goal ("We want to be allowed to cross the Elven-king's hunting grounds during our journey.")
-They then have a certain number of allowed rolls, depending on the Tolerance reached.
-So, the group needs to think its strategy when talking, as they need to reach X successes in Y rolls.
-I guess (that's my guess), adventures will also tell you what can happen with a certain NPC when rolls are failed (or failed with an Eye!).
-As you see, if you don't get those successes, you don't achieve your goal.

I feel that careful consideration of what is a goal in a Council and what not is fundamental: getting paid more money is not a goal, that's an achievement the group might get through good rolls. Convincing someone you are the right people to hire is the goal.
 
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Carcharoth
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Re: Councils in TOR 2e

Thu 18 Feb 2021, 03:54

I don't have any comments about how things will work in 2.0, only that I trust Francesco knows what mechanics to tweak to facilitate smoother gameplay. However, some general Encounter advice:

So is a success accomplished by some good roleplaying or by a good roll of the dice?

Both hopefully, so we tried rolling first and then roleplaying the result. That works well during travel & combat. But we still struggle during encounters and I still have to remind my players not to forget the rolling. Hmmm.

I like to let my players roleplay, and I pay careful attention for words and actions that challenge the personal interests of the NPC. This results in more Tests than Tasks generally, as my players also tend to simply start talking with the NPC and each other without proposing Tasks. After I throw some Tests at them, often challenging them in skills they are poorest at, they generally will shift their focus, get their head in the game, and realize that the NPC isn't simply sitting there passively, waiting for the right number of successful roles before giving the players what they want. My NPC is actively trying to assert their own interests, or reinforce their own perceptions of the players that they are dealing with.

Furthermore encounters are - 99% of all times - very easy to succeed. I can’t remember one encounter in our whole campaign, that went bad, so they didn’t accomplish their preset goal. There was no uncertainty like - will we manage to persuade Thranduil to help us?

No tension. Interest on the players side? Yes. Exchange of information? Sure! Hints to understand political aspects or contexts of the story. Absolutely. But no tension whether to reach the goal or not.

Two suggestions: use the optional rules for tracking the number of successes and create "tiers of success". Starting with something like "0-1 successes: players are chased off or forced to leave because the NPC doesn't trust the strangers trying to solicit something from them", and going up incrementally from there. Remember, in the twilight of the Third Age, people are isolated, ill-informed of outsiders, and therefore very suspicious. I often try to establish a sense of danger from simply talking to the NPC. Walking up to a travelling caravan? Expect the NPCs to put their hands on the hilts of their weapons and instinctively "circle the wagons" before even speaking to the players. Meeting with Thranduil in his hall? My players are certainly going to be disarmed, and Mirkwood elves will be in every corner of the room, watching the players' every move, gaze, and shifting of feet. This helps establish tension. I don't think you should have the threat of death in the forefront of your encounters all the time, but Thranduil is no fool, and he doesn't let outsiders into his presence often...

Overall, I think the key is to treat the encounter like a combat. NPCs aren't locked doors or hidden paths, simply waiting to be unlocked or discovered, they are actively pushing their own agendas all the time, same as PCs. Going back to your Thranduil example: how did they even get an audience with him in the first place? I would imagine there would have to be at least one encounter BEFORE the encounter with Thranduil to vet the players to see if they're even worthy of being granted an audience. If you do manage to talk to him, he's already self assured of his own abilities and wisdom, and of the capabilities of his people to handle any situation, so why should he even entertain your rag-tag group of outsiders? It would be in his best interest you say? How is it that you have some kind of inside information that he or his spies don't have, and what abilities do you possess that would cause him to trust you over, say, Legolas? He doesn't want your help, the same way you wouldn't be keen on listening to "outsiders" who are coming to you with information that you either haven't heard, or contradicts what people you trust are telling you.

If an NPC is already "on your side" or eager for assistance, it's probably not going to make for a good encounter, and is best left to either simple roleplaying, or maybe a simple pass/fail roll. The best encounters, like I said, are like combats: the NPC is trying to stop you from succeeding at your task, just like an enemy. They may not want you dead, but they certainly don't want their worldview challenged, or situations to change outside of their control, and they should be working to maintain the status quo that your players are trying to change.
"Of all the terrors that came ever into Beleriand ere Angband’s fall the madness of Carcharoth was the most dreadful; for the power of the Silmaril was hidden within him."
- The Silmarillion
 
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Carcharoth
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Re: Councils in TOR 2e

Thu 18 Feb 2021, 04:12

A few more thoughts about encounters:

They're harder in my mind for one main reason: They're harder to improvise. Combat? No problem. The bad guys want you dead, you want them dead. Journeys? Also not a problem. You wanna go over there? It'll take 15 days, and along the way, you will get lost, fight wolves, and let's say *checks notes*, fall in a giant hole. Why not?

Encounters though? Coming up with distinct motivations for NPCs is almost as involved as creating a PC (to me anyway), and it's hard to improvise a 4-tiered heirarchy of success. Encounters, therefore, are helped by planning, and making the encounter longer, more thought-out event.

I hope there are some changes in 2.0 that help LMs improvise encounters a littler easier. I also struggle with the separation between the Introduction and Interaction phase. It works well in formal settings, but I sometimes blur the lines between the two phases when dealing with encounters in a less structured setting, such as a tavern or out in the wild.
"Of all the terrors that came ever into Beleriand ere Angband’s fall the madness of Carcharoth was the most dreadful; for the power of the Silmaril was hidden within him."
- The Silmarillion
 
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Asrath
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Re: Councils in TOR 2e

Thu 18 Feb 2021, 08:09

-So, the group needs to think its strategy when talking, as they need to reach X successes in Y rolls.
Thanks Falenthal. That’s a good point. So the number of rolls are limited. That helps, I think. I will give that a try.
 
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Asrath
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Re: Councils in TOR 2e

Thu 18 Feb 2021, 08:14

@ Carcharoth:
Thanks! You give some great advice!
I prepare my encounters, if I can, but I‘m not so good in improvisation. Still you make some good points and I will try keeping them in mind !
 
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Falenthal
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Re: Councils in TOR 2e

Thu 18 Feb 2021, 10:07

I will add that what we know about the new way to handle Encounters/Councils reminds me a lot of a house-rule by James R Brown that I've been using since he posted it. I think he called it "Reversed Tolerance": it's basically to consider the Tolerance the number of rolls that will count towards the success of the Encounter. Once that many rolls have been made, be they successes or failures, the conversation can go on, but no other success will add to the outcome.
The Introduction was considered a single roll regarding Tolerance, but successes and failures of all those who talked were added up.

Basically, the most interesting thing was that, as the LM, you just had to register 3 or 4 rolls, usually. And low Tolerances made it very difficult to achieve the best outcomes.
 
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Winterwolf
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Re: Councils in TOR 2e

Thu 18 Feb 2021, 14:19

I like that idea Falenthal - I think that I'll adapt to using that or similar. I'm not sure if my group ever failed to reach the top level of Successes... but then they tend to be careful that characters only use skills with a good chance of success - quite a reasonable way to play.....

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