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Aiden Harrison
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Extra Weapons

Tue 26 Oct 2021, 17:54

I've decided to add an extra weapon to each weapon group. I think they are fairly balanced, although if anyone can see any glaring issues, feedback is welcome.

WEAPON DAMAGE INJURY LOAD COMBAT PROFICIENCY NOTES
Sling 3 12 1 Brawling Ranged Weapon
Staff Sling 4 14 2 Brawling Ranged Weapon, 2 handed
Bill 5 14 3 Spear 2-handed
Throwing Knife 3 12 1 Swords Can be thrown
Falchion 3 18 2 Swords -
War Sword 6 18 4 Swords 2-handed
Light Throwing Axe 3 14 1 Axes Can be thrown
Throwing Axe 4 16 2 Axes Can be thrown
Short Bow 3 12 1 Bows Ranged Weapon, 2 handed
Composite Bow 4 14 3 Bows Ranged Weapon
Long Bow 3 16 3 Bows Ranged Weapon, 2 handed

Extra points:
Throwing Knives get the +1 Pierce from using a success dice (like all swords)


Slings are not a simple weapon to use but they fit best with the Brawling Proficiency, they make a good pick for a character who has a high hunting skill, but does not carry a ranged weapon (Had that before with a Beorning Character, we hand waved it as his hunting skills making use of snares and fishing at the time)

Its a little awkward to put the two throwing weapons in their respective Combat Proficiencies but throwing a spear is very different to wielding it in combat and they get away with it.

The Long Bow is an intermediate weapon between the two other bows, you could argue that a great bow is a longbow but I think there is a place for a bow between the two that is Load 3.
Last edited by Aiden Harrison on Wed 24 Nov 2021, 18:38, edited 6 times in total.
 
Asgo
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Re: Extra Weapons

Tue 26 Oct 2021, 20:09

...
WEAPON DAMAGE INJURY LOAD COMBAT PROFICIENCY NOTES
Sling 3 12 1 Brawling Ranged Weapon
...
while I understand the hunting association/use, with 3 12 you are coming rather close to bow values and are in danger of undercutting the bow skill - ie getting an almost standard ranged weapon without having to pay for the skill. As a "bow" weapon it would be a light ranged weapon, for "brawling" I would reduce the damage values a bit.
In terms of hunting, hunting is more stealth and hit or miss situation than stand up fight, meaning I wouldn't necessarily require high weapon skill for hunting.
Throwing Knife 3 14 1 Swords Can be thrown
Throwing Axe 4 16 2 Axes Can be throw
...
The axe should work fine as it is basically on the downscale of the existing axes. For the throwing knife, I would make it "has to be thrown" or its values are too high compared to a dagger.
But the thrown component would work in both cases as they have a "munition" of 1 as the spear, so they don't actually go into competition with the bow skill.
Long Bow 3 16 3 Bows Ranged Weapon
adding "in between" versions I think is the easiest change as long as you can make them feel distinct and a longbow would be probably a nice addition for someone playing primarily an archer and wants some variation. Your sling might also work as a short bow. :)
 
Otaku-sempai
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Re: Extra Weapons

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 01:34

I don't see Throwing Knife as in the Swords proficiency. It pretty clearly belongs in Brawling. Perhaps add an undocumented ancient Númenórean weapon: The War Sword.

WAR SWORD
Damage: 6
Injury: 18
Load: 4
Combat Proficiency: Swords
Notes: 2-handed

I wanted to call this a Great Sword but the name might be problematic as, historically, great sword and long sword can be synonymous.
#FideltyToTolkien
 
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Aiden Harrison
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Re: Extra Weapons

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 02:18

With regards to the sling: The sling was used as a weapon of war by many early cultures, and its bullet could easily break bones, that was my thinking with the Injury Rating of 12. The bow is still a superior weapon, remember a brawling weapon uses your highest proficiency minus 1d6, plus it pierce with a +2 and has a better Injury Rating.

A throwing knife would be better in a dagger in hand to hand from a mechanical point of view but you are paying the load of 1 for that slim benefit... Meh.

By the logic that it should be in brawling... I disagree, by that measure so should the two spears if thrown.

I did think about including a war sword as a great axe/great spear tier weapon.

Thanks for the input you two. Will have a think about your points some more.
 
Otaku-sempai
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Re: Extra Weapons

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 17:19

Here was my original (TOR 1e) write-up for Sling, based on the entry from the AiMe's Player's Guide. It's pretty similar to your own version:
.
Sling
Damage: 3
Edge: 10
Injury: 12
Encumbrance: 0
Group: --
Called Shot: Piercing blow (regardless of the outcome of the Feat die).
Notes: Usable by Dwarves and Hobbits. Ranged weapon (as Bow).
.
A throwing knife would be better in a dagger in hand to hand from a mechanical point of view but you are paying the load of 1 for that slim benefit... Meh.

By the logic that it should be in brawling... I disagree, by that measure so should the two spears if thrown.
.
On the contrary, this follows from the same standard that places the Dagger under Brawling rather than the Swords proficiency. If the Dagger falls under Brawling (as per RAW) then so should a Throwing Knife.
#FideltyToTolkien
 
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Aiden Harrison
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Re: Extra Weapons

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 18:46

Good point about daggers I suppose... hmmm.

Although from a purely mechanical balance point of view a Dagger does have 0 load, (i.e everyone will have one). If the throwing knife was brawling it would be taking the -1d to use which neither the throwing axe nor the two thrown spears have to do.

Being able to throw a properly weighted weapon is a skill that needs practice – So it has to go into the main weapon group.

Otherwise you may get three party members with 3 in their respective weapon group - Sword/Axe/Spear, with a throwing weapon each Throwing knife/Throwing Axe/Short Spear.
If throwing Knife was in brawling then that party member would only roll 2d, the other two can throw at the full 3d for their respective weapon (and even throw a throwing knife of their own at the same 2d) seems a little harsh on player 1.

Have I convinced you yet OS?

Though looking at the throwing knife against the short spear they have the same damage and Injury rating. So perhaps for balance I should drop the damage of the throwing knife to 2. A throwing knife would be the same as a dagger then but can be thrown. It has to keep the Load 1 for balance though (otherwise everyone would take a dozen or so).

Throwing Knife 2 14 1 Swords Can be thrown
(still keeps the +1 pierce bonus)

I think that might be a better balance. What do you think?
 
gyrovague
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Re: Extra Weapons

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 18:46

Throwing knives feel very un-Tolkien to me, unless perhaps used by Adversaries (probably some version of Evil Men, but maybe some kind of goblin?). But of course that's 100% subjective opinion. YMMV.

Slings, on the other hand, feel very Hobbit-like to me, although I could see Breelanders or other..."regular"...folk, such as Dunlendings, using them. (And....Woses!!!)

It makes me think that I'd like to see "Brawling" as a separate category, instead of just taking -1d from your highest weapon skill. That way you could make the trade-off of focusing on less-effective weapons (daggers, clubs, slings, etc.) but with the benefit that you would have both ranged and close combat options with a single skill.
 
gyrovague
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Re: Extra Weapons

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 18:51

Being able to throw a properly weighted weapon is a skill that needs practice – So it has to go into the main weapon group.
I wouldn't ever base RPG combat rules on a "realism" argument about intrinsic difficulty or training requirements. That way lies madness....and petabytes of forum argument.

But I do think one needs to be careful about exploitable loopholes. As you pointed out, daggers don't have a Load value, so you would want to be careful that you don't create a situation where a player claims to have an infinite supply of throwing knives.
 
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Aiden Harrison
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Re: Extra Weapons

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 19:00

I am trying to keep to mechanical balance over 'realism' in mind.

Yes I just wandered away from that with the weighted weapon point, but I was keeping mechanical balance in mind. Hence my opposite argument for the sling being in brawling (not an easy weapon to use in reality) but it has to go there for balance.

I like the Raw for the brawling skill, it allows a seasoned warrior to pick up any brawling weapon and wreck face with it using their best skill -1d. Having a separate skill like the 1e dagger skill (which was the default brawling skill) never really worked - no one upgraded it ever.
Last edited by Aiden Harrison on Thu 28 Oct 2021, 01:34, edited 1 time in total.
 
gyrovague
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Re: Extra Weapons

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 21:26

I like the Raw for the brawling skill, it allows a seasoned warrior to pick up any brawling weapon and wreck face with it using their best skill -1d. Having a separate skill like the 1e dagger skill (which was the default brawling skill) never really worked - no one upgraded it ever.
Right, because the dagger itself was strictly inferior to the other choices. Which is why I would (if I were going to make it it's own skill) combine several weapons, including sling (and thrown rocks): you get inferior weapons, but you have the advantage of getting both ranged (sling, thrown) and close combat (dagger, club...maybe staff) in one skill.

If I were playing some kind of scholar or "everyman" kind of character, I would totally go for a skill like that, instead of focusing on sword/axe/spear/bow.

And I think that also describes Bilbo pretty well, even if Sting is described as being "as good as a short sword for a hobbit". (Which could still be an argument for Sting technically being a dagger, since an actual short sword would probably be "as good as a long sword for a hobbit".)

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