Dorjcal
Topic Author
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 10:40

Knowing that you had a "safety net" that you could spend in case of failure always decreased the dramatic tension.
Now my players play hope on the task that Have to succeed, and they evoke how their character is pushing himself beyond to attempt something they cannot afford to fail.
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 15:08

Knowing that you had a "safety net" that you could spend in case of failure always decreased the dramatic tension.
Now my players play hope on the task that Have to succeed, and they evoke how their character is pushing himself beyond to attempt something they cannot afford to fail.
That you could SOMETIMES spend in case of failure. It felt right. The game was literally shouting at the player, "you're so close; you can do this!", but only if they were indeed so close with their original roll. It was like an athlete somehow finding the strength for one last spurt of energy to propel them over the finish line. I will miss it but hey ho, it ain't changing, so onwards and upwards.
 
gyrovague
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Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 16:17

Knowing that you had a "safety net" that you could spend in case of failure always decreased the dramatic tension.
Now my players play hope on the task that Have to succeed, and they evoke how their character is pushing himself beyond to attempt something they cannot afford to fail.
Classic case of YMMV, I guess.
 
Dorjcal
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Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 16:34

Knowing that you had a "safety net" that you could spend in case of failure always decreased the dramatic tension.
Now my players play hope on the task that Have to succeed, and they evoke how their character is pushing himself beyond to attempt something they cannot afford to fail.
That you could SOMETIMES spend in case of failure. It felt right. The game was literally shouting at the player, "you're so close; you can do this!", but only if they were indeed so close with their original roll. It was like an athlete somehow finding the strength for one last spurt of energy to propel them over the finish line. I will miss it but hey ho, it ain't changing, so onwards and upwards.
Close? if you had an attribute of 6 you could have +6 on a default TN of 14. Meaning that you succeed with an aggregate of 8.
If you even had +3 from the favored you could push it to a reliable +9.
 
RichKarp
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Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 17:05

The whole “it was automatic success!” argument is problematic, failures still happened, but less frequently in areas where the character really should be an expert, and as a function of their own decision to spend Hope. It was a choice, trading instant gratification for long-term consequences. I thought it was a good safety net that made clever use of Attributes, that was useful when trying to correct a failure on your Favoured areas, but wasn’t deterministic of your overall success/failure rate.

But some people thought Attributes were useless and never got featured. Presumably they are happy campers now that all TNs are tied to the relevant Attribute.
 
baldrick0712
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Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 18:51

Close? if you had an attribute of 6 you could have +6 on a default TN of 14. Meaning that you succeed with an aggregate of 8.
If you even had +3 from the favored you could push it to a reliable +9.
Average roll on 1 Feat die and 2 Success dice: 4.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 = 11.5 = 2.5 short of TN 14. So, being "close but no cigar" was indeed very common, but not inevitable.
 
Dunheved
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Location: UK

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 21:30

(I think that it is very easy to fall into the same set of posts about the mathematics and the pros & cons of the change in the Hope rule: but we have that thread elsewhere haven't we?* Much as I prefer Hope 1e to Hope 2e, I think this thread is about how we are finding our initial experiences of using Hope 2e.)


As I read it, the OP is saying No safety net = More dramatic tension as you wait for the dice to stop rolling. I get that.
Hope TOR2e has the same fun/thrill as winning a gamble. With the new way of spending Hope you still are improving your chances of Success. And like gambling it can be very attractive to keep on Spending.

I've run a few sample fights, not as number crunching exercises, but as narrative trails, describing a combat before picking up the dice for a second round of combat. So I have invested in the emotion and excitement of RP combat a few times now (Dalesman with sword versus minions; then against bigger adversaries).
I have to agree that when the dice roll went well, it felt good to take out an Orc or two. But it was clear that a newbie with a weapon skill of 2 needs to pick up an extra dice most times or else they miss too much. Missing in a round of combat made me want to spend Hope and have better odds - and it was annoying to not gain much with the extra 1d6.

Getting that extra T rolled when (i) spending hope - ON ALMOST EVERY ROLL - or (ii) by choosing Forward Stance (and that stance was used on every roll to give my Dalesman a fair chance of hitting and creating damage) was more than a relief. It soon became a necessity. By going Forward, the adversary gained T results as well! My warrior got heavily damaged, quickly.

My conclusions:
1. Yes. TOR2e Hope will give you an emotional high when your PC gives that Orc a hit. (but I get that high when I hit without Hope too!)
2. You get an emotional 'down' when the attack, even with Hope, doesn't come off. And despite spending Hope like crazy, you can still fail in the combat. You cant rescue yourself from this 'down'.
3. It feels fast but it isn't really, if you narrate the action.
4. The amount of Hope spent while being a Newbie feels excessive. I spent Hope on 2 out of 3 rounds of combat typically, just to get be more certain of surviving the combat myself. Most adversaries outclass most newbies. You can easily spend 8 to 10 Hope before you get to the Fellowship Phase - just in combat. What else will you do to help your Fellowship?
5. The joy of hitting the enemy was often offset by taking more punishment in return. But using up Hope rapidly to do that creates a negative emotional tension: and I didn't enjoy that.

On balance: I am still concerned that Hope exhaustion will set in after a couple of Fellowship Phases. And there are plenty of gambles to take in the game already - I still find that the gain in the emotional drama doesn't make up for removing my occasional control over my PCs fate.




* and the other thread said most of it very clearly. Sometimes I almost switched over to liking TOR2e Hope. But I will take Francesco's offer** and permit house-ruling Hope to make it after the roll.
** there are no TOR Police to drag you off to the lockholes!
 
Dorjcal
Topic Author
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 21:40

(I think that it is very easy to fall into the same set of posts about the mathematics and the pros & cons of the change in the Hope rule: but we have that thread elsewhere haven't we?* Much as I prefer Hope 1e to Hope 2e, I think this thread is about how we are finding our initial experiences of using Hope 2e.)


As I read it, the OP is saying No safety net = More dramatic tension as you wait for the dice to stop rolling. I get that.
Hope TOR2e has the same fun/thrill as winning a gamble. With the new way of spending Hope you still are improving your chances of Success. And like gambling it can be very attractive to keep on Spending.

I've run a few sample fights, not as number crunching exercises, but as narrative trails, describing a combat before picking up the dice for a second round of combat. So I have invested in the emotion and excitement of RP combat a few times now (Dalesman with sword versus minions; then against bigger adversaries).
I have to agree that when the dice roll went well, it felt good to take out an Orc or two. But it was clear that a newbie with a weapon skill of 2 needs to pick up an extra dice most times or else they miss too much. Missing in a round of combat made me want to spend Hope and have better odds - and it was annoying to not gain much with the extra 1d6.

Getting that extra T rolled when (i) spending hope - ON ALMOST EVERY ROLL - or (ii) by choosing Forward Stance (and that stance was used on every roll to give my Dalesman a fair chance of hitting and creating damage) was more than a relief. It soon became a necessity. By going Forward, the adversary gained T results as well! My warrior got heavily damaged, quickly.

My conclusions:
1. Yes. TOR2e Hope will give you an emotional high when your PC gives that Orc a hit. (but I get that high when I hit without Hope too!)
2. You get an emotional 'down' when the attack, even with Hope, doesn't come off. And despite spending Hope like crazy, you can still fail in the combat. You cant rescue yourself from this 'down'.
3. It feels fast but it isn't really, if you narrate the action.
4. The amount of Hope spent while being a Newbie feels excessive. I spent Hope on 2 out of 3 rounds of combat typically, just to get be more certain of surviving the combat myself. Most adversaries outclass most newbies. You can easily spend 8 to 10 Hope before you get to the Fellowship Phase - just in combat. What else will you do to help your Fellowship?
5. The joy of hitting the enemy was often offset by taking more punishment in return. But using up Hope rapidly to do that creates a negative emotional tension: and I didn't enjoy that.

On balance: I am still concerned that Hope exhaustion will set in after a couple of Fellowship Phases. And there are plenty of gambles to take in the game already - I still find that the gain in the emotional drama doesn't make up for removing my occasional control over my PCs fate.




* and the other thread said most of it very clearly. Sometimes I almost switched over to liking TOR2e Hope. But I will take Francesco's offer** and permit house-ruling Hope to make it after the roll.
** there are no TOR Police to drag you off to the lockholes!
I am actually running a campaign and the PC are far from exhausting hope. Probably after the Fellowship fase at worst they will have -1Hope.
It is important to remember that in combat there are other ways to increase the number of die you can roll.
For example Rally comrades gives +1d to everyone in forward stance (to others with great and extraordinary success), and, as long as you describe it properly it is possible to roll battle as a secondary action to gain 1d as well
 
gyrovague
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 21:46

What I get from some of these game reports is:
1) The new TNs make many rolls too hard
2) The new Hope system is kind of necessary to fill in that shortfall.
 
Dorjcal
Topic Author
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sat 24 Jul 2021, 22:43

What I get from some of these game reports is:
1) The new TNs make many rolls too hard
2) The new Hope system is kind of necessary to fill in that shortfall.
You are free to use your Heart score (or Wits if you are a ranger) + 1 for each adventure phase. Beginner adventurers might end spending up a bit more Hope at the beginning, and rely more on their experience on their expertise. Also, worst case scenario, you get 1 Hope every long rest if you reach 0 Hope

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