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Vader
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Mon 29 Nov 2021, 17:34

Still feel I somehow need to go back to first principles on this one ... I've personally handled weapons that were manufactured decades ago — back in the 60's, 40's, heck, back in the 1900's — and have ever since been in constant military use, passing through hundreds of hands, firing countless — tens, hundreds of — thousands of rounds, if not literal millions. Granted, they were well cared for that whole time, but my point is, these weapons worked as smoothly as ... well, some mildly obscene biological simile ... with no perceptible undue wear. Moving parts are well polished, but that's about it.

The only case where I've felt it was a bit ... questionable, was a particular sample of Pistol m/40 — a notoriously inferior copy of the Lahti pistol, manufactured under license in Sweden. But those pistols also suffered from being asked to fire the m/39B round, with its high chamber pressure ... something they were not originally built to do.

Other than that, they've all looked as if they were perfectly good for another century or two of hard use.

Point being, I have difficulty envisioning how military-grade firearms after a measly three years of war would be anywhere near a point where they're about to break down for good. Especially if they've spent those three years in the hands of military personnel who understand the value of treating your life insurance nice.

Sure, I've seen weapons break down to a point where they became non-operational — most spectacularly a couple of cases where people didn't understand that you're supposed to pull the M16A2's charging handle straight back and then release it, and consequently bent it (a "breakdown" that just as easily could occur with a brand-spanking-new weapon straight from the factory as with the one both your father and grandfather used, by the way) — but none of it was worse than that you could fix it with either the right spare parts or a semi-competent gunsmith.


So, how do you guys rationalise the system? Do you just say that what the heck, it adds flavour and suspense to the game so we just roll with it, or do you find some way to explain it that makes it sound plausible?
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
baldrick0712
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Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Reliability of weapons.

Mon 29 Nov 2021, 18:43

So, how do you guys rationalise the system? Do you just say that what the heck, it adds flavour and suspense to the game so we just roll with it, or do you find some way to explain it that makes it sound plausible?
From my reading of the rules it's actually pretty hard to break a weapon, or any piece of gear. It suffers a reduction to REL through damage or pushing the roll but it's still functional until REL reaches zero and you can spend a shift to repair it by passing a Tech roll. The number of successes rolled increase the item's REL (up to its maximum). Even if it reaches zero REL you can still repair it in one shift by passing a Tech roll but this time you have to consume a suitable "spare part". The rules are general rather than specific and apply to anything from an M16 to a radio or a Humvee. You are also required to conduct regular maintenance every week - same rule (pass a Tech roll) - or REL degrades by 1.

I'm not sure I fully understand your complaint. Is it that reduction to 0 REL is too binary - i.e. the weapon or item is now completely useless other than as a paperweight whereas in RL it would just jam occasionally?
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Mon 29 Nov 2021, 19:16

Oh I know, but are we saying that an M16A1 is going to take as long as an AK-47 before it stops working at all?
Yes. Absolutely.
Without proper maintenance in field conditions?
 
baldrick0712
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Mon 29 Nov 2021, 20:06

but none of it was worse than that you could fix it with either the right spare parts or a semi-competent gunsmith.
Isn't this basically the mechanic in the game? Consume a spare part and make a Tech roll, regenerating one REL per success?
 
paladin2019
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: Reliability of weapons.

Mon 29 Nov 2021, 20:14

Oh I know, but are we saying that an M16A1 is going to take as long as an AK-47 before it stops working at all?
Yes. Absolutely.
Without proper maintenance in field conditions?
Yes, absolutely. The Kalashnikov action is overrated in the ignoring maintenance category.
 
leonpoi
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri 08 Jan 2021, 05:10

Re: Reliability of weapons.

Tue 30 Nov 2021, 03:16

I do see the point of the posed question - why have a mechanic that tracks and supposedly differentiates reliability and wear that treats every gun the same.

Also, if I understand the jamming rules properly, the current reliability of the weapon does not impact the chance of jamming.

You could split the two up - e.g.
- when pushing, any 1’s reduce reliability
- when firing - even when not pushing - a number of 1’s equal to the reliability -2 cause a jam (i.e. a Rel 5 weapon jams on 3 1’s, Rel 4 on 2 1’s). Maybe this can be tweaked - I haven’t put much thought into the number of 1’s needed and this would work

You could also say, when reliability has been reduced, roll a d6 and if it’s > Rel then the weapon jams.

Weapons have Reliability as normal rules.

Taking something from a previous twilight version, perhaps a fix could be to give weapons traits. They can be:
Durable - the first 1 on a pushed roll does not reduce reliability
Needy - twice as long to repair / fix / maintain
Rare - harder get get spare parts / most expensive (x10 the cost?)
Reliable - when checking jams, ignore the first 1 (or Rel counts as +1 higher)
Unreliable - when checking jams, add an additional 1 if any 1 was rolled (or Rel counts as -1 lower)
Ubiquitous - easier to get spare parts / cheaper (half the cost?)
 
andresk
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon 05 Oct 2020, 16:38

Re: Reliability of weapons.

Tue 30 Nov 2021, 09:45

While that's an interesting idea and mechanic (though I would go with "roll equal or more ones to the REL rating for a jam"), it's another thing to keep in mind and keep track of in the already busy combat flow. As baldrick0712 pointed out, this REL mechanic seems to just model regular maintenance. If you don't clean your weapon regularly, it will at some point malfunction and risk breaking/losing some part - the most common ones I can think of are firing pin, springs, gas regulators. Now if it makes sense for that breakage to come from the lack of maintenance, well that's up to you. For me it's a system that in the big picture makes sense and is abstracted enough not to be a pain to keep track of.
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Tue 30 Nov 2021, 10:48

I'm not sure I fully understand your complaint. Is it that reduction to 0 REL is too binary - i.e. the weapon or item is now completely useless other than as a paperweight whereas in RL it would just jam occasionally?
I think it's very binary, but given the system it's hard to make it less binary without a lot of paperwork or rules bogging down a firefight.
liber & infractus
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Reliability of weapons.

Tue 30 Nov 2021, 11:56

I'm not sure I fully understand your complaint. Is it that reduction to 0 REL is too binary - i.e. the weapon or item is now completely useless other than as a paperweight whereas in RL it would just jam occasionally?
I think it's very binary, but given the system it's hard to make it less binary without a lot of paperwork or rules bogging down a firefight.
Someone with more knowledge than me might be able to come up with a "Critical" table for weapons so when it reaches 0 REL you roll on the table and get something random effect. Possible effects: A) Roll a d6 and on a 1 it jams before any rounds are fired; B) Roll a d6 and the magazine falls out after the attack, requiring a Reload action to remedy; C) Each attack uses 1d6 ammo dice (player doesn't get to choose - normal maximums still apply).
 
Oddball_E8
Topic Author
Posts: 441
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Reliability of weapons.

Tue 30 Nov 2021, 18:37

I'm not sure I fully understand your complaint. Is it that reduction to 0 REL is too binary - i.e. the weapon or item is now completely useless other than as a paperweight whereas in RL it would just jam occasionally?
I think it's very binary, but given the system it's hard to make it less binary without a lot of paperwork or rules bogging down a firefight.
Someone with more knowledge than me might be able to come up with a "Critical" table for weapons so when it reaches 0 REL you roll on the table and get something random effect. Possible effects: A) Roll a d6 and on a 1 it jams before any rounds are fired; B) Roll a d6 and the magazine falls out after the attack, requiring a Reload action to remedy; C) Each attack uses 1d6 ammo dice (player doesn't get to choose - normal maximums still apply).
As I understand it, when a weapon reaches REL 0, it cannot be used any more before it's fixed.
It's not a jam or that something like that. It's simply broken.

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