Oddball_E8
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Reliability of weapons.

Sun 28 Nov 2021, 09:29

Am I the only one that's slightly bothered by the fact that pretty much all mass produced weapons (with the, in this context, strange exception of the M60) have a reliability value of 5?

I mean, there are some weapons who have a reputation of being more reliable in the field than other weapons. And there are some weapons that are notoriously finnicky.
And it doesn't reflect in the values since pretty much *every* weapon (with the exception of the M60, which by the time the game takes place, most were so worn down that even spare parts didn't help and it had a horribly bad reputation) has a maxed out reliability value.

Shouldn't at least *some* weapons have a value of 4? (and I would have put the M60 at 3, even)

I mean, nobody who's read the rules will ever pick an AK-47 over an M16A1 because of its reliability.
 
paladin2019
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Sun 28 Nov 2021, 10:10

FWIW, I've never had a problem with an M60. SAWs, on the other hand...to be fair, ours were absolutely abused for the short time we had them as in lieu ofs for M16s. The reality is that the US chose to purefleet M240 variants rather than by new M60s and have two supply chains. The result is M60s losing the reputation they gained 30 years prior when they were introduced.

But otherwise, I don't what the game gains by adding more variance to reliability.
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Sun 28 Nov 2021, 11:20

FWIW, I've never had a problem with an M60. SAWs, on the other hand...to be fair, ours were absolutely abused for the short time we had them as in lieu ofs for M16s. The reality is that the US chose to purefleet M240 variants rather than by new M60s and have two supply chains. The result is M60s losing the reputation they gained 30 years prior when they were introduced.

But otherwise, I don't what the game gains by adding more variance to reliability.
Haven't used the M60, I'm just going off Ian's comments in his videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNVegwm ... tenWeapons
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Sun 28 Nov 2021, 12:46

The REL stat is not about stoppages, failures to extract or anything minor as this. These questions keep coming up in forums again and again. REL is about when the weapon physically breaks down so much that it keeps working at all. It is not until REL hits 0 that it has a definitive effect in the game, i. e. the weapon stops working at all. Minor issues, such as stoppages, failures to extract etc. are not simulated in 4E as clearing them is an abstracted part of the rather long combat rounds.
liber & infractus
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Sun 28 Nov 2021, 13:17

The REL stat is not about stoppages, failures to extract or anything minor as this. These questions keep coming up in forums again and again. REL is about when the weapon physically breaks down so much that it keeps working at all. It is not until REL hits 0 that it has a definitive effect in the game, i. e. the weapon stops working at all. Minor issues, such as stoppages, failures to extract etc. are not simulated in 4E as clearing them is an abstracted part of the rather long combat rounds.
Oh I know, but are we saying that an M16A1 is going to take as long as an AK-47 before it stops working at all?

I see it as REL being about wear and tear on the weapons and how long they last in field conditions before they stop working.

And in that light, I'd contend that several weapons would have a lower REL value than say an AK-47, Galil or FN FAL.

I'm not talking about minor stoppages etc. I'm viewing REL the same way you do.

Which is essentially as "hit points" for weapons, and they "take damage" each time you push a roll and get 1's, so in the end they "die". And I'd argue that some weapons have more HP than others, in that regard.

Maybe weapons who have a reputation for being unreliable or "finnicky" would have REL 3, *normal* weapons have 4 and weapons with a reputation for excellent reliability would have 5?
 
baldrick0712
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Sun 28 Nov 2021, 14:17

It is a bit silly having virtually every piece of gear have a REL of 5. However, if you want to emphasize how a particular weapon or item is "known for its reliability" you could use the "Gun Care" rules (Players Manual p91). For example, give your Tech roll a +1 modifier if the weapon is renowned for keeping going even after being dropped in mud etc.
 
paladin2019
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Mon 29 Nov 2021, 00:14

Oh I know, but are we saying that an M16A1 is going to take as long as an AK-47 before it stops working at all?
Yes. Absolutely.
 
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Viperion_NZ
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Mon 29 Nov 2021, 05:45

I don't know that there would be many M16A1's floating around by the year 2000, would there? They would have all been upgraded to A2's or higher in the 70's and 80's, AFAIK

Having said that, your point is a good one, and I think that having the default values lower for some guns would totally work - but you'll never get an agreement from everyone on which guns those should be lol

I frequently (read: always) hand out less-than-fully-repaired guns as "treasure" when my players have a firefight. If they want to spend the weapon parts to repair them, cool.
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Mon 29 Nov 2021, 15:16

I don't know that there would be many M16A1's floating around by the year 2000, would there? They would have all been upgraded to A2's or higher in the 70's and 80's, AFAIK
The A2 was introduced in '82, the final production year of the M16A1. All in all, M16A1s remained in limited training use until the early 2000s and you bet they would've been in Europe by the time draftees would have come across the Big Pond.
liber & infractus
 
paladin2019
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Re: Reliability of weapons.

Mon 29 Nov 2021, 16:43

What Ursus said. I had an A1 at OSUT in '93 and again in the Guard in '99.

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