Oddball_E8
Topic Author
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Should there be more weapons with picatinny rails?

Thu 25 Nov 2021, 08:51

Looking through some images of soldiers from 2001, I noticed that quite a lot of them included weapons with picatinny rails on them.

Considering the accelerated arms race in the game, would weapons with picatinny rails have been more common in '97 than they were IRL?

(Yes, yes, I know about the whole "it's your game, do what you want" but I just want to talk about it with others before I make my mind up.)

I'm mainly talking about US soldiers here, though.
 
paladin2019
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: Should there be more weapons with picatinny rails?

Thu 25 Nov 2021, 09:06

No. The only rails common at the time (outside of SOF, natch) were the receiver rails on M4s and M16A4s. And the latter variant wasn't all that common, either. Maybe the lack of a peace dividend would speed up procurement and issue, but I doubt it. It's still the time of the hose clamps and scope mounts if you've got one of these Image and want a weapon light.
 
User avatar
Ursus Maior
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue 25 Aug 2020, 20:58
Contact:

Re: Should there be more weapons with picatinny rails?

Thu 25 Nov 2021, 09:53

Large, massive warfare is the moment where militaries learn how to (re-)introduce basic, working and reliable gear, which works "one size fits all". The "SOFization" of Western militaries is an outcome of the peace dividend, downscaling and reorienting towards low-intensity conflicts, where there is room or even a felt need for many different occupations to be handled by a regular rifleman. So, better optics became available during the 1990s, but that wouldn't mean every Tom, Dick, and Harry gets a rail and can choose which optic to mount. As long as production would run, there would be a chance for frontline divisions to receive ACOG sights. At some point, they would be redistributed to just one company per battalion or only fire team leaders etc.
liber & infractus
 
User avatar
ottarrus
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri 15 Oct 2021, 14:11
Location: Tacoma WA

Re: Should there be more weapons with picatinny rails?

Thu 25 Nov 2021, 10:53

Simple answer: No.
The historical point of divergence in T2K4 is the 1991 Moscow August Putsch.
At that point, the Western democracies were happily disassembling their militaries [in the US we called it the 'peace dividend'] because some idiot diplomat announced that 'peace has broken out'.
In the game timeline this continues into 1995. Several events that sped the development of M4 series and picky-rails simply didn't happen, most notably the Global War on Terror. Hard line Republican administrations were not elected, monies that were otherwise funneled into weapons development were put elsewhere.
In 1995, ONLY US Special Operations Command forces had the M4 with rails... All line troops are still equipped with the M16A2. And the Warsaw Pact never even entertained the idea of modular rail systems at all. Russia only started equipping them in large elite units [VDV, mountain troops, etc.] in something like 2008 or 10.
So, no, I don't think your average T2K line grunt in the 5th ID[M] is gonna have his Star Wars zap gun with two sights, three lights, and a phone app. He'll be using an M16A2 with iron sights against Pact troops with AK-74's.
 
User avatar
Vader
Posts: 944
Joined: Fri 15 Nov 2019, 14:11
Location: The Frozen North

Re: Should there be more weapons with picatinny rails?

Thu 25 Nov 2021, 14:27

Yeah, no.

The whole "Modular Carbine" thing is a child of the "End of History" idiocy and the GWOT interlude. In T2k none of that happens.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
User avatar
omnipus
Posts: 742
Joined: Mon 22 Jun 2020, 20:58

Re: Should there be more weapons with picatinny rails?

Thu 25 Nov 2021, 20:02

And the Warsaw Pact never even entertained the idea of modular rail systems at all. Russia only started equipping them in large elite units [VDV, mountain troops, etc.] in something like 2008 or 10. So, no, I don't think your average T2K line grunt in the 5th ID[M] is gonna have his Star Wars zap gun with two sights, three lights, and a phone app. He'll be using an M16A2 with iron sights against Pact troops with AK-74's.

Slightly less simple answer: while Russia was (and still is) way behind the curve on modular components, by the early 90s they had fielded a good number of later-model AK-74s (Ns and Ms) which all feature the side rail for mounting detachable optics. This can be done in just a few seconds. "Theoretically" it even holds zero when doing so.

Of course only a very limited selection and number of these optics would exist.
Author, Central Poland Sourcebook -- now available on DriveThruRPG
 
Oddball_E8
Topic Author
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Should there be more weapons with picatinny rails?

Thu 25 Nov 2021, 20:47

Just to make it painfully clear: I'm not asking if most line troops would have M4's with rails.
I'm just asking if they wouldn't be more common than they are represented in the rulebook.
Currently, there are pretty much zero weapons with rails in the game. (I think the only one depicted with rails is the M82/AG90)

Special Forces would have them, for sure, but would also some of the more "prepared" frontline troops have had them during the outbreak?

Like I said, just looking at pictures from 2001, most had them.
And that's just 4 years after the war breaks out in the game.
 
paladin2019
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: Should there be more weapons with picatinny rails?

Thu 25 Nov 2021, 21:39

Pictures from 2001 would almost all be SOF. M4 and M5 rail systems didn't become common until the non-airborne units started pure-fleeting M4s or got refitted with M16A4s. The M82 is depicted with a rail (like the M4) in the core book. The M240 is depicted with anachronistic AAL.
 
User avatar
ottarrus
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri 15 Oct 2021, 14:11
Location: Tacoma WA

Re: Should there be more weapons with picatinny rails?

Thu 25 Nov 2021, 21:58

Just to make it painfully clear: I'm not asking if most line troops would have M4's with rails.
I'm just asking if they wouldn't be more common than they are represented in the rulebook.
Currently, there are pretty much zero weapons with rails in the game. (I think the only one depicted with rails is the M82/AG90)

Special Forces would have them, for sure, but would also some of the more "prepared" frontline troops have had them during the outbreak?

Like I said, just looking at pictures from 2001, most had them.
And that's just 4 years after the war breaks out in the game.

As others have posted here, OB, only SOF forces had picky rails at all in the 90's. After 9/11 and the windfall of cash the Federal budget devoted to getting the military up to speed, THAT'S when you're gonna see the M4's and the other whizz-bang stuff get issued to anything other than Rangers, Special Forces, and SEALs.

To use another example, there were flying prototypes of UAV drones available 1995... Hell, Tom Clancy had drones in two books in that time frame before he died... but those were strictly CIA /DIA assets and were only rumored at the divisional level.

And to get all that money for the military, Pres. Bush had to **eviscerate** the Federal budget for anything that didn't have direct military /intelligence applications. A lot of roads didn't get fixed, a lot education programs simply didn't happen, a lot of pay raises didn't happen outside of the DoD und so weiter. Stating the obvious here, 9/11 was a seminal event in world history... a Pearl Harbor /VJ Day moment... and the military's development timeline was 'fast-forwarded' to the extent that 20 years of planned growth happened in about 7 years. At the price of what almost became another Second Great Depression.

This is why you shouldn't look to Y2K for your military standards and equipment. As the game timeline is written, the capabilities of the US military would be more in line with Desert Storm and a bit after, rather than the GWOT. In a movie sense, look more towards 'Jarhead' and less towards 'Generation Kill' or 'Hurt Locker'.
 
User avatar
omnipus
Posts: 742
Joined: Mon 22 Jun 2020, 20:58

Re: Should there be more weapons with picatinny rails?

Fri 26 Nov 2021, 02:48

You could easily argue that without peace dividend, you have more continued development and spending on the military through the 90s... but then almost all of that would have gone into armored vehicles, aerospace, and other programs and probably not at all to the lowly rifleman.
Author, Central Poland Sourcebook -- now available on DriveThruRPG

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests