Oddball_E8
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Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Soldier Kit

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 17:04

So, I'm putting together a list of items that the players get to roll for to see what they have left of their original kit.

(this all stems from a long discussion in the thread about player starter money that got derailed)

So, I kinda know what Swedish soldiers have in their kit, but I don't know, in detail, what a US soldier or marine would have in their Fighting Kit or March Kit.

So, I thought I'd use the collective knowledge of the playerbase to put together a list that the players can roll from.

Starting off, I'd look at what the players are assumed to have if they're starting the game as soldiers and not civilians.

They are assumed to have a Uniform (Fatigues) and a Canteen for water. I take that Uniform to include LFC/webbing, so that's what I'm gonna give my players if they start off as soldiers.
They also get a personal weapon of some sort (AR in most cases), D6 reloads (magazines), Flak Jacket (and in many cases, helmet), Knife OR D6 hand grenades (in my games it will be AND instead of OR), Personal Medkit and a Backpack.

MRE's are included in the food rations you get at the start.
And I'm assuming that the water rations you get are either in canteens or plastic bottles scrounged from wherever you can find them.

That's something that pretty much ALL military careers get at the start of the game.

Now, some things that are missing from that, which I will assume are just *there* since they're small personal items are things like extra socks, underwear and such and isn't really listed anywhere else either.

Things missing from the list that are actually listed in the game are; Compass, Flashlight, Gasmask, Raingear and Sleeping Bag.

Now, items that are not listed in the game, but are still an important part of the kit are, for example, e-tools and weapon cleaning kits.

They are important items of kit, but they don't really have any listing in the game (not even a spade, which has been used as a melee weapon for ages), and so I'll put them on the list, but they don't have an in-game function. (e-tools don't count as basic tools, and weapon cleaning kits don't count as weapon tools. The description of those are both very specific and don't fit the bill for either)

So, to recap, I've come up with this list so far:

Compass
Flashlight
Gasmask
Raingear
Sleeping Bag
E-tool
Weapon cleaning kit.

To that, I will add:

MOPP suit (as some were issued)
Thermal Fatigues
Field Kitchen (for Swedes, this was standard equipment, for the US, this could have been picked up or bartered from a Swede)

So... what's missing? Help me fill in the list. For now it's just a short little D10 list, and I want more ;)
 
paladin2019
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: Soldier Kit

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 19:32

Depending on what you mean by "field kitchen," this is either the mess kit (plates, utensils, etc) for an individual to eat with or a Company or Higher level assets, usually trailer mounted, for cooking. Assuming the former, the US had phased them out and relied on disposable items in the interest of field sanitation (to keep soldiers from getting sick from improperly cleaned gear). The latter would be an interesting addition to team equipment.

For masks and MOPP suits, they are like no longer serviceable as intended. Uncontaminated MOPP suits are most likely used as insulating/hard shells as their protective value has probably degraded to that of normal uniforms. Masks probably lack fully serviceable filters, particularly for those characters with high RAD counts. Rainsuits do their job as an adjunct function of being rainsuits (an impermeable membrane), so they should work if they are still useful as rainsuits. (Note that the US was moving away from impermeables to Gore-Tex in this time period, so not all raingear is chemical protective.)

Flashlights are a hardsell. Batteries and risk of using them, particularly without raingear for concealment, pushes them down the list. Also, I have never been issued one as personal kit. Compasses aren't an everyman thing, but in a combat unit, at least, 1/3 is reasonable. Also 1 per vehicle (which can be one of the 1/3) and 1 per mortar or artillery piece (which is separate from the 1 per vehicle of the prime mover).

Thermal fatigues are ill-defined enough to be a toss-up. Are these as simple as light as long underwear, sweaters, and/or a hardshell or are these the full-up heavy insulating layers (full bear suit, Mickey Mouse boots, etc) and overwhites for sustained sub-zero operations? If the former, no one would give them up. If the latter, they're probably only be issued in the Sweden theater.

One thing the US had in abundance was night vision. At least two sets issued per vehicle without integral systems, another set for each crew served weapon, and ~half+1 per rifle squad. But expecting these to be much more than dead weight is optimistic.

Addendum. One thing missing from the equipment lists are dosimeters. They don't give the warning or direction finding that a radiacmeter does, so they're probably just another unspecified item that allows the character to have a reasonable idea of their RADs score. Write it on your equipment list, but it doesn't have any tracked costs. (The US version is a brass cylinder with a pen form factor or a brand-new-for-the-period wristwatch type device the wearer can't read.)
 
Oddball_E8
Topic Author
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Soldier Kit

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 22:31

Depending on what you mean by "field kitchen," this is either the mess kit (plates, utensils, etc) for an individual to eat with or a Company or Higher level assets, usually trailer mounted, for cooking. Assuming the former, the US had phased them out and relied on disposable items in the interest of field sanitation (to keep soldiers from getting sick from improperly cleaned gear). The latter would be an interesting addition to team equipment.
No, I mean the stuff that Sweden still issues. The current model is Kök 09 but the Home Guard still use some of the older kokkärl m/40
For masks and MOPP suits, they are like no longer serviceable as intended. Uncontaminated MOPP suits are most likely used as insulating/hard shells as their protective value has probably degraded to that of normal uniforms. Masks probably lack fully serviceable filters, particularly for those characters with high RAD counts. Rainsuits do their job as an adjunct function of being rainsuits (an impermeable membrane), so they should work if they are still useful as rainsuits. (Note that the US was moving away from impermeables to Gore-Tex in this time period, so not all raingear is chemical protective.)
Well, I'm talking about working Gasmasks and working MOPP's. Which is why they're on this list and not on the standard equipment. Because they're rare to find in working order.
Flashlights are a hardsell. Batteries and risk of using them, particularly without raingear for concealment, pushes them down the list. Also, I have never been issued one as personal kit. Compasses aren't an everyman thing, but in a combat unit, at least, 1/3 is reasonable. Also 1 per vehicle (which can be one of the 1/3) and 1 per mortar or artillery piece (which is separate from the 1 per vehicle of the prime mover).
From what I've read when googling american equipment (and from what's been said in the player money thread), 1 compass per soldier and 1 flashlight per soldier seems to be the standard (although, these days the flashlight is gone and replaced with night vision equipment as standard). Don't know if soldiers had 1 compass each in the 90's, but they do seem to have had 1 flashlight each.
And batteries and risk doesn't factor into it since it's just random equipment that happens to have survived for this long unbroken. So if you roll a flashlight, you get one in working order that has batteries. It's up to the player to decide if they want to risk using it.
Thermal fatigues are ill-defined enough to be a toss-up. Are these as simple as light as long underwear, sweaters, and/or a hardshell or are these the full-up heavy insulating layers (full bear suit, Mickey Mouse boots, etc) and overwhites for sustained sub-zero operations? If the former, no one would give them up. If the latter, they're probably only be issued in the Sweden theater.
It's the former. And you don't really use those in the summer in Sweden. Despite what some in the US think, we don't have polar bears running around. It gets well over 77 degrees F here during summer on a regular basis, and you won't want to use your thermal gear then. And like we've pointed out several times in the other thread... wear and tear is a thing. And there's no guarantee that the soldiers were even issued thermal gear in the first place since the initial incursion into Poland and Sweden was during the summer, and with the massive number of conscripts coming from the US (and reserves in Swedish forces), there might not even have been enough thermal gear to equip them all.
Either way, I'm putting thermals in this list because they wouldn't be used for ½ the year and thus could easily have been lost in a panicked withdrawal or if the camp got raided or whatever, and then never replaced due to the supply lines being gone.
One thing the US had in abundance was night vision. At least two sets issued per vehicle without integral systems, another set for each crew served weapon, and ~half+1 per rifle squad. But expecting these to be much more than dead weight is optimistic.
I'm not putting them on the list since I consider them too much of a powerful tool to give players a pair of functioning ones at the start of the game. (Like I said, everything on the list will be functional. Hence this being a list for scarcer pieces of kit)
Addendum. One thing missing from the equipment lists are dosimeters. They don't give the warning or direction finding that a radiacmeter does, so they're probably just another unspecified item that allows the character to have a reasonable idea of their RADs score. Write it on your equipment list, but it doesn't have any tracked costs. (The US version is a brass cylinder with a pen form factor or a brand-new-for-the-period wristwatch type device the wearer can't read.)
I mean... players already get to track their RAD's score. So there's no reason to write up this one specific item that does nothing rules-wize and that weighs nothing.
 
tgunner91
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Joined: Fri 20 Aug 2021, 17:27

Re: Soldier Kit

Mon 22 Nov 2021, 02:22

Honestly, what "kit" you would have depends on your MOS and what you were able to keep. Field ops are really rough on your stuff and over time you'll break or lose stuff. Honestly, I think a solder who's been in the field for a year or so would be struggling to even have anything like their initial issue! I remember this line that Charles McDonald had in his book, Company Commander, where he commented on the soldiers of the fresh 106th Infantry Division when they relieved his unit, the 2nd Infantry Division, just before the outbreak of the Battle of the Bulge:

"It had begun to snow when our relief appeared the next afternoon. My men were amazed at the appearance of the men from the incoming unit. They were equipped with the maze of equipment that only replacements fresh from the States would have dared to call their own. And horror of horrors, they were wearing neckties! Shades of General Patton!"

Basically McDonald is saying that veterans would have long since discarded or lost some gear and acquired other pieces to replace it, or they would have added other gear that they thought would help them survive. So honestly, think like a veteran soldier- what would a survivor from months, if not years, in the field have on them? For a late 90's WWIII US soldier I would think the following:

Kevlar and everyone would have a field cap or two, maybe some boonie hats too. I preferred the field cap as it was more comfortable to wear and since "you're on your own..." you may as well be comfortable!
Flack Jacket (maybe the updated ones with the armor inserts)
Field Jacket and/or wet weather top (keeping BOTH would be excellent, but if pressed I would keep the wet weather top, or at least a poncho. High-speed troops might still have those amazing Gore Tex wet weather tops- in the US Army the Cavalry Store is your friend!)
LBE (load bearing gear also known as TA-50- that's the pistol belt, 2-3 ammo carriers, and the first aide pouch, canteen)
As many mags, preferably the 30 round mags, but 20 round boxes would be good too, with each ammo carrier filled up- three mags per carrier.
As many loose rounds as possible- probably in the ruck sack. Hell these would be valuable! Say 1d10 x 100 rounds that they can split up for their personal weapons.
Maybe some frag and smoke grenades (I bet they would be getting scarce)
A ruck sack- infantry probably would still have the frame. Tankers and other GIs not so much.
Guys with a vehicle/AFV might still have their duffle bags with their other issue stuff
Maybe a working flashlight- good luck getting batteries though. The Army issued one was kind of crappy- a lot of guys carried the big and small Maglites
A knife (Gerber was the preferred), maybe some guys, especially infantry, would still have their bayonets
M16A2 rifle (almost everyone had a rifle). Grunts may have their M256 SAWs, M203 grenade launcher, or M60/M240 machineguns. Grunts may also have M72 LAWS or M136s (we called them AT4s which just means 84 as in 84mm). Vehicles might have a Ma-Deuce (tanks for sure and maybe some Humvees or Deuce and a Halves). I remember seeing some mechanics carrying around M3 Grease Guns back in '91. There might be a few still soldering on by the late 90's.
M9 or M1911 pistol (some were issued to AFV crews, but I can see grunts swiping or trading for a pistol)
Maybe their Gas Mask (most GIs would have the M17, AFVs like me had the AFV crewman mask that had the stupid hose on it) and MOPP gear (they would either be valuable as all get out or long since discarded- it depends on how much NBC Ivan threw around, and good luck finding replacement gear if so!)
Food is pretty tricky. We carried 3 MREs in our rucksacks and had several more in our duffel bags, but after a couple of hard years in Europe I would say that MRE's are probably as scarce as ammo. Odds are that your band of troopers are eating off the "economy" by trading for, or stealing, what they can. Before Kaliz US units were probably decently supplied with some MREs from home and other rations from the Germans. Maybe a nice GM would start them with a few days of food and perhaps a few MREs.

Honestly, I think the big dividing line between the haves and the have nots would be having a vehicle. I can tell you as a veteran that your vehicle is your HOME! Its shelter from the elements, your ride, and it's the place where you keep your stuff. In fact, keeping your vehicle up and running would be a big part of the problem of remaining alive. As long as you have your vehicle you have the ability to carry stuff, move from place to place, and to stay warm and dry. Losing your vehicle would be catastrophic hit to your ability to stay alive and keeping your personal morale up. I can easily see a campaign revolving around finding fuel and spare parts to keep the wheels (or tracks) running. Scavenging wrecks and bone yards will be a must and I can see soldiers and locals fighting over salvage "rights". In fact, only getting water and food would be more important to a party of survivors trying to find their way back to Germany to get on a freedom boat heading back home.

Some guys would have their E-tools (they were damn useful!)
Clothes- maybe mostly Army issue, but probably a lot of civilian or even Warsaw Pact stuff too. Germany and Poland can be cold and wet places so you'd wear whatever you can scrounge. A unit with a functioning vehicle or two would have more of this stuff whereas a poor bunch of GIs on foot probably are lucky to have the BDUs on their backs and maybe a change of skivvies/socks. GIs were issued two cold weather uniforms and two summer uniforms. I personally HATED the summer uniform because it really wasn't any "cooler" than the winter uniform and it couldn't take the abuse that the heavier cold weather uniform could. In fact, I bet that by Y2K you'd be hard pressed to find any summer uniforms that would be fit to wear. Europe is cooler anyway, so the cold weather uniform would be in wider issue anyhow.
Hygene stuff- more of it if the party has a vehicle or almost nothing if not (maybe a bar of soap and a toothbrush)

That's just the stuff that comes to mind. I imagine that I've missed some stuff.
 
paladin2019
Posts: 434
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Re: Soldier Kit

Mon 22 Nov 2021, 06:11

No, I mean the stuff that Sweden still issues. The current model is Kök 09 but the Home Guard still use some of the older kokkärl m/40
Nope. That is something not issued and, if present, would be self-funded by the soldier.
Well, I'm talking about working Gasmasks and working MOPP's. Which is why they're on this list and not on the standard equipment. Because they're rare to find in working order.
That's my point. Serviceable MOPP suits shouldn't be a random chance. You have to buy them. Unserviceable ones may be what the individual is wearing as "fatigues" or thermal fatigues".
From what I've read when googling american equipment (and from what's been said in the player money thread), 1 compass per soldier and 1 flashlight per soldier seems to be the standard (although, these days the flashlight is gone and replaced with night vision equipment as standard). Don't know if soldiers had 1 compass each in the 90's, but they do seem to have had 1 flashlight each.
1 per on either of these is not likely. There aren't that many compasses, so they go to leaders, scouts, guides, etc. Outside of SOF, that is. They may have deployed issued two each. It's different with flashlights; everyone I've ever used I've bought myself. They aren't issued items.
RE: Thermal fatigues as simple as light as long underwear, sweaters, and/or a hardshell
If this is the case, they will, at worst, be rolled up in the bottom of the wet weather liner in the rucksack, ready to be pulled out when the weather turns. Or maybe a jacket in an outer pouch to put on at night.
I'm not putting them on the list since I consider them too much of a powerful tool to give players a pair of functioning ones at the start of the game. (Like I said, everything on the list will be functional. Hence this being a list for scarcer pieces of kit)
Agreed. They get issued but, if present, probably aren't meaningfully serviceable.
I mean... players already get to track their RAD's score. So there's no reason to write up this one specific item that does nothing rules-wize and that weighs nothing.
I'm talking in terms of how the character knows their RAD dosage, not the player. It's one of those "write it so you have it" things.
 
Oddball_E8
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Posts: 442
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Re: Soldier Kit

Mon 22 Nov 2021, 06:39

Nope. That is something not issued and, if present, would be self-funded by the soldier.
And I specifically said that it's issued to Swedish personnel and it would have been bartered from Swedish personnel if the player is US (I'm playing the Swedish setting).
I said this all in the description.
I'm fairly certain that Polish and Soviet soldiers had these during the 90's too, but their local versions would be mostly the old WWII era mess kits that was used well into the 80's until replaced by a more modern version (but still a mess kit, and not the disposable stuff that is used nowadays).
That's my point. Serviceable MOPP suits shouldn't be a random chance. You have to buy them. Unserviceable ones may be what the individual is wearing as "fatigues" or thermal fatigues".
And again, that's my point. These are things that have been picked up or preserved during those years. Hence why it's on the random list.
1 per on either of these is not likely. There aren't that many compasses, so they go to leaders, scouts, guides, etc. Outside of SOF, that is. They may have deployed issued two each. It's different with flashlights; everyone I've ever used I've bought myself. They aren't issued items.
Are you trying to troll me? You've implied several times in the other thread that compasses are part of everyone's kit ("Unless compasses, for example, are an assumed gear item and covered in the normal chances for navigation; lack of one would be a -1 or -2 rather than improving chances.", "But to say the density of compasses (on your kit or in your pocket)..." and "If canteens and mags aren't getting lost and worn out, neither are compasses (something that is specifically tied of to you by design rather than fieldcraft)."
As for flashlights, sure, they might not have been standard kit (although, som comments in the other thread dispute that), but many soldiers carry one. So it should be on the list.
RE: Thermal fatigues as simple as light as long underwear, sweaters, and/or a hardshell
If this is the case, they will, at worst, be rolled up in the bottom of the wet weather liner in the rucksack, ready to be pulled out when the weather turns. Or maybe a jacket in an outer pouch to put on at night.
Aaaand thus could be lost during an enemy raid, or during retreat, or could be worn out over time. Thus it's on this list.

I mean... players already get to track their RAD's score. So there's no reason to write up this one specific item that does nothing rules-wize and that weighs nothing.
I'm talking in terms of how the character knows their RAD dosage, not the player. It's one of those "write it so you have it" things.
And according to me, it's one of those "assume you have it" things.
And even if it's not, it doesn't need to be in this list if everyone is assumed to have it.
 
paladin2019
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: Soldier Kit

Mon 22 Nov 2021, 10:52

I don't think I ever suggested everyone should have a compass, just that the starting "cash" should be able to cover one. If I implied otherwise, I was intercommunicating.
 
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ottarrus
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Location: Tacoma WA

Re: Soldier Kit

Mon 22 Nov 2021, 16:36

I served in the US Army in the 80s in Germany, I was a tank crewman in one of the forward-deployed cavalry regiments that patrolled the border between the two Germanies and Czechoslovakia.
This is the personal gear that I had in my 'go-bags'
Two provisos:
- The 80s and 90s were a time of great change in the US Army. New equipment, new doctrine, and new tactics were coming down from the Department of the Army all the time.
- The chief driver of that change was a 4-year period between 1988 and 1992, the time between Panama and Desert Storm. Since the T2K4 timeline diverges in 1993, 1992 is the lynchpin year for US equipment and standards.

So, the gear I was issued:
Personal weapon was the M3 'Grease Gun' SMG, replaced by the M16A1 assault rifle during my tour.
Worn /Carried:
PASGT Kevlar helmet, BDU uniform [shirt, trousers, underwear, soft cap], field jacket [still the cotton twill M65, GoreTex came later], NOMEX vehicle coverall, pair of boots [still the black 'cruit-boots'], work gloves, vehicle goggles, ALICE webbing and rucksack; webbing consisted of ammo pouches [total 6 mags], canteens x2 w/ NBC cap [so you can drink with a mask on]. entrenching tool, poncho, first-aid pouch [1x sterile wound dressing]; M25 Vehicle Crewman NBC Mask, chemical skin wipes, x6, agent antidote injector [atropine /pralidoxime] x 1
In ALICE Pack:
[this was gear I used all the time and wanted easy access to] Waterproof Bag, Spare clothing x2, Poncho Liner [also called 'woobie'], rain gear [jacket, trousers, rubber boots - oftentimes the jacket was lined with woobie material at private expense, it made for a lighter field jacket substitute], spare NOMEX coverall, NBC MOPP Suit, spare mask filter, shaving kit, winter pile cap, wool scarf, wool glove inserts, thermal underwear, weapon cleaning kit.
In Duffel Bag:
[this was stuff I was supposed to have but almost never needed] Waterproof Bag, Sleeping Bag w/ winter cover, Wool Blanket, Arctic boots [called 'Mickey Mouse boots' because of their shape], Cold Weather coat, trousers, mittens, and face mask.
Private purchase items and 'Tiny' Items:
Notebook, pens x2, Leatherman multi-tool, MagLite LED penlight, hiking socks [4 pair], sunglasses, bandana [at least 2], handkerchiefs, energy bar x3 [usually accompanied by a couple of RitterSport candy bars], Walkman cassette player [usually 4 or so tapes], spare batteries, bottle of Ibuprophen, Pocket Bible. A lot of us also bought combat knives [K-Bars and Gerber Mk. 1 and 2 were popular] until command put a stop to it.
Last edited by ottarrus on Sat 27 Nov 2021, 16:11, edited 1 time in total.
 
Oddball_E8
Topic Author
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Soldier Kit

Tue 23 Nov 2021, 06:19

Having talked to my boss (who is an active Major in the Home Guard), my Cousin (active Captain in the Home Guard) and my Cousin's Son (active service member just a few years ago in the regular army), it seems my list is pretty accurate.

In Sweden, soldiers get issued a flashlight but compasses are only given to Corporals and Sergeants and up (or rather, to every group (basically the swedish version of squad) leader. So for every 6-8 soldiers there's 1 compass).

Other than that, nothing new came up that isn't on the list (other than stuff that was introduced after the year 2000, like aimpoint sights and stuff like that).


So, I think I'm gonna go over the list one more time, see if I want to add something that's not issued but would be popular to pick up from civilians and then I'll finalize the list.
 
Oddball_E8
Topic Author
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Soldier Kit

Wed 24 Nov 2021, 07:18

Here's the list:
  • Roll a D12
    1 Compass
    2 Flashlight
    3 Gasmask
    4 Raingear
    5 Sleeping Bag
    6 E-tool
    7 Weapon cleaning kit
    8 MOPP suit
    9 Thermal Fatigues
    10 Field Kitchen
    11 Blanket (or a 'Woobie', Poncho Liner)
    12 Binoculars
Personally, I'm gonna let the players roll twice each if they're soldiers and once if civilian, but it all depends on how generous you are.


EDIT: BEYOND THIS POINT THE THREAD DEVOLVES INTO ARGUMENTS ABOUT ALL KINDS OF IRRELEVANT THINGS. PROCEED AT YOUR OWN PERIL. ;)
Last edited by Oddball_E8 on Fri 31 Dec 2021, 08:22, edited 1 time in total.

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