Forum

Lost over time? Worn out or broken?

If canteens and mags aren't getting lost and worn out, neither are compasses (something that is specifically tied of to you by design rather than fieldcraft). And neither would your coat if you've got your rucksack and rations. Same with the rest of things that should be with your ruck. Maybe one or two are gone, but the whole team's e-tools? With no replacement to pull out of Bob's bag when he got smoked a few weeks back?

And, yes, 4e is assumed to start in the aftermath of Kalisz (or its Swedish equivalent). Earlier versions are totally focused on breaking out from Kalisz, with that being the starting scenario included.

Radio models aren't specified in earlier versions. Nor is specificity in the support branch; the PC was an NBC NCO because the player defined them that way. They could just as easily been a radio repairman or a crypto/intercept guy or the like. And the limit is what fits on your back and in your truck. That's where the limits aren't being enforced.

This is not a true statement. It's an interpretation this version leans into. Previous versions were based on being well-supplied and whittling all that down with no resupply. They were about resource management, not resource nonavailability.

Checking the T2K2.2 rules, we're both 'sort-of' right. The rules generalize radios by type ['2km Hand Radio' and then specify examples [AN/PRC -68 in that example]. The radio that I was grousing about was the Secure Man-pack w/ Scrambler, which under the conditions of the campaign was a SOC-only item [we were doing a Desert Storm era based RDF Sourcebook game].
The NBC NCO was generated as a skill-focused Support Arm character. But we were all generated as 'line' troops, no SOC characters allowed, with 'reasonable line gear'.
My point here is just that all too many characters in earlier editions went derping around with a pistol, an SMG, and a sniper rifle with a silencer and IR/LI scope... as truck mechanics. Yes, in T2K you should start fairly well equipped -- for troops cut off from resupply for two or more years -- and things get scarcer as you go. But your vehicle shouldn't start out as 'Honest Achmed's Circus Caravan and Arms Bazaar' either.

Lost over time? Worn out or broken?

If canteens and mags aren't getting lost and worn out, neither are compasses (something that is specifically tied of to you by design rather than fieldcraft). And neither would your coat if you've got your rucksack and rations. Same with the rest of things that should be with your ruck. Maybe one or two are gone, but the whole team's e-tools? With no replacement to pull out of Bob's bag when he got smoked a few weeks back?

And, yes, 4e is assumed to start in the aftermath of Kalisz (or its Swedish equivalent). Earlier versions are totally focused on breaking out from Kalisz, with that being the starting scenario included.

I don't actually see canteens listed in equipment, other than in the bit that states ". In addition to the items you choose, you are assumed to have a uniform or sturdy civilian clothing, and a canteen for water".
It states "rations of water", but those could be in used plastic soda bottles or whatever else the players have scrounged up. And the magazines might not be the ones they started out with, it's just stuff they've picked up off of dead bodies or whatever.

However, from the way you're writing all this, it seems you assume that all the players are from the same unit. you keep saying things like "the whole team's e-tools" and "no replacement to pull out of Bob's bag when he got smoked a few weeks back".
Sure, they're all part of the 5th (or 2nd if in Sweden) if you just go off the default start setting, but that's still like 17.000 men in a division. And the players are 5 or so of the survivors.
And they're on the run after a disastrous battle. And that battle was launched after a very long time of attrition.
Like it says in the flavour text on p30 of the referee manual: " You were a raggedy-ass division - half of you on horseback or foot. Vehicles running off distilled alcohol. Uniforms mended, then mended again and half of those from other units if not other NATO countries."

But you're looking at the situation as if this was a completely fresh unit with full stock of equipment and supplies that accidentally wandered into a bad situation and ran away.

Most of the shit you don't have on you, you lost long before the battle of Kalisz. I'd imagine that since the supply lines broke down 2 years ago, a lot of the equipment broke or got lost and couldn't be easily replaced.
I'm betting they were lucky if they had one compass and map per platoon, let alone squad or individual soldier.
Same for a lot of the other stuff.

(I do believe that your coat is assumed to be included in the "you get a uniform or sturdy civilian clothing" statement for starting gear).

But hey, if you're the GM and you want all your players to be from the same unit, and you want them to have a full supply of equipment despite years of having no supply lines and constant wear and tear, go ahead and give them that.

As I suggested earlier, why not just allow some weapon reloads to be broken down into loose ammo as currency, then allow some common items to be bought with it? Most characters start with d6 spare magazines or belts of ammo, so a group with say a machine gunner, a rifleman, and a couple of civilians might have 600+ rounds of ammo just in reloads alone on average - more if they're lucky with their rolls. The referee could allow up to 50% of the ammo in reloads to be exchanged for whatever the group want, within reason. It would easily cover the cost of things like a compass, sleeping bags etc.

As a suggestion, it might be useful to generate a list of 100 or so common items not currently listed [lensatic compasses, MagLites, Leatherman tools, **batteries**, etc.] and allow the PCs to roll their INT die to see how many of these items they get to pick.
Some of this stuff could be somewhat odd, but useful for a foreign soldier. There's nothing particularly wrong with an ADAC [the German AAA] road map of Poland, for example. It's not militarily accurate, isn't showing current conditions [ruins, downed bridges, etc.] and only shows rude terrain features, not the precise stuff you're used to in a 1:50000 topographic map. For that matter, a dictionary /phrase book would be incredibly helpful but doesn't appear on any gear list I've ever seen for T2K.
Limitations would certainly include nothing more than your ENC in gear, but other limits might be imposed so such a situation doesn't get abused.
A system like this would preserve the sense of scarcity, preserve the player's ammo, and fill some of those gear gaps we all seem concerned about.

For a lot of that sort of stuff and more, I really recommend this: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/27 ... pocalyptic

It's geared towards more of a Mad Max kinda setting by default, but most of it is totally usable and invaluable for Twilight!

For a lot of that sort of stuff and more, I really recommend this: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/27 ... pocalyptic

It's geared towards more of a Mad Max kinda setting by default, but most of it is totally usable and invaluable for Twilight!

Thanks a bunch, they had several useful books with random tables, just what I need when inspiration is low *two thumbs up*

/Makhfi

As a suggestion, it might be useful to generate a list of 100 or so common items not currently listed [lensatic compasses, MagLites, Leatherman tools, **batteries**, etc.] and allow the PCs to roll their INT die to see how many of these items they get to pick.
Some of this stuff could be somewhat odd, but useful for a foreign soldier. There's nothing particularly wrong with an ADAC [the German AAA] road map of Poland, for example. It's not militarily accurate, isn't showing current conditions [ruins, downed bridges, etc.] and only shows rude terrain features, not the precise stuff you're used to in a 1:50000 topographic map. For that matter, a dictionary /phrase book would be incredibly helpful but doesn't appear on any gear list I've ever seen for T2K.
Limitations would certainly include nothing more than your ENC in gear, but other limits might be imposed so such a situation doesn't get abused.
A system like this would preserve the sense of scarcity, preserve the player's ammo, and fill some of those gear gaps we all seem concerned about.

Yeah, I was planning on doing something like this myself.
Not based on any skill or ability die, but just a random number of rolls (say, 2D6 or something) for the players to roll to flesh out their starter kit with some more stuff to make them unique.

That said, as for this whole topic, I'm not going to use ammo as currency.
I'll just call currency "gold" and explain to the players that it's only used as a placeholder for value mostly, since bartering is the defacto way of doing business and they're not actually paying with gold.

As a suggestion, it might be useful to generate a list of 100 or so common items not currently listed [lensatic compasses, MagLites, Leatherman tools, **batteries**, etc.] and allow the PCs to roll their INT die to see how many of these items they get to pick.
Some of this stuff could be somewhat odd, but useful for a foreign soldier. There's nothing particularly wrong with an ADAC [the German AAA] road map of Poland, for example. It's not militarily accurate, isn't showing current conditions [ruins, downed bridges, etc.] and only shows rude terrain features, not the precise stuff you're used to in a 1:50000 topographic map. For that matter, a dictionary /phrase book would be incredibly helpful but doesn't appear on any gear list I've ever seen for T2K.
Limitations would certainly include nothing more than your ENC in gear, but other limits might be imposed so such a situation doesn't get abused.
A system like this would preserve the sense of scarcity, preserve the player's ammo, and fill some of those gear gaps we all seem concerned about.

Yeah, I was planning on doing something like this myself.
Not based on any skill or ability die, but just a random number of rolls (say, 2D6 or something) for the players to roll to flesh out their starter kit with some more stuff to make them unique.

That said, as for this whole topic, I'm not going to use ammo as currency.
I'll just call currency "gold" and explain to the players that it's only used as a placeholder for value mostly, since bartering is the defacto way of doing business and they're not actually paying with gold.

Yeah, I'm not 100% in love with trading ammo for a can of soup either
But using a generic term like 'credit' or 'barter value' or something would give an adequate sense of 'I got two clean blankets to trade for 1 liter of vodka' type trade blanket economics.
Beyond the basics that everyone needs all the time... food, water, medicines.... it would be a good idea to have an idea of what each settlement or large group of people wants for finds valuable. In the middle of winter, you probably could get a liter of vodka for two clean blankets! lol!

Yeah, I'm not 100% in love with trading ammo for a can of soup either
But using a generic term like 'credit' or 'barter value' or something would give an adequate sense of 'I got two clean blankets to trade for 1 liter of vodka' type trade blanket economics.
Beyond the basics that everyone needs all the time... food, water, medicines.... it would be a good idea to have an idea of what each settlement or large group of people wants for finds valuable. In the middle of winter, you probably could get a liter of vodka for two clean blankets! lol!

That's why I'm going to use "gold" as the generic term for barter value.

Granted, should the players actually run into some real gold, I'll have to have worked out a defined value per gram, but that shouldn't be an issue since I actually used to work as a gold dealer a few years back for Guld Adam (EDIT: Damn, I had to check, but it was 10 years ago that I worked there... damned company doesn't even exist any more, hahaha!)

I'm thinking of just putting it at an arbitrary 1g of gold = 1 unit of cost in the book.
Wanna buy a medkit? That's 25g of gold.
Wanna buy a pistol? That's 125g of gold.
Wanna buy an M249? That 1kg of gold!
Wanna buy an Abrams? That's 1 metric ton of gold!! (You'll need another tank to haul that gold in the first place!)

But yeah, most likely the players won't ever see any gold, unless it's taken off civilians and the like in the form of jewelry (and in Sweden, most gold jewelry tends to be 18k, so that's only 75% pure, meaning 1kg of assorted jewelry will only give you a value of 750 grams anyway... possibly less since it's not in pure form).