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Oddball_E8
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Player Starting Money

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 22:10

You're essentially saying that everyone should start with a full kit.
You've said it repeatedly.
Based on what you suggest as a full kit, I haven't. I'm arguing for one or two, and easier access to a third, items on your list.
Btw. The group gets to pick from a list of items as well, equal to the number of players in the group (p18), so there's your "E-tools from Bob's bag" you were talking about earlier. It means that each individual player might not have a full kit, but together they'll most likely have at least a compass, e-tools and other stuff since they get to pick from that list (and exchange for other things of equal value at the referee's discression).

The way I see it, according to RAW, a starting group get basically all the stuff you're asking for in the first place. Maybe not one for every member of the group, but there's no need for the whole "where's X item that everyone gets issued". Especially not for items like e-tools that are not even included in the entire players manual as an item.
 
Shroud
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun 21 Nov 2021, 03:42
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
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Re: Player Starting Money

Mon 22 Nov 2021, 07:49

You're the one who brought up evacs and dead soldiers.
And you said I live in a dream world about them. My response was far more civil than that deserved.
You're essentially saying that everyone should start with a full kit.
You've said it repeatedly.
Based on what you suggest as a full kit, I haven't. I'm arguing for one or two, and easier access to a third, items on your list.
Is your Truck / HMMVW already packed, and ready to go?
Always. It's called load plans and discipline. You're done using something, you re-pack immediately.
Yup. Roger that. Best of luck to your heroes. They will all certainly come out of it, issue socks intact, with a can of CLP, and their cleaning rod and bore sight for the M2HB.
.
DM_Shroud- Sailor, Gamer, Author, Mensan
Professional RPG Referee - https://startplaying.games/gm/dm-shroud-roll20
My Authors Blog: https://theaurincluster.blogspot.com/
Digital Moon Books - https://www.digitalmoonbooks.com/
 
starkillerbh
Topic Author
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon 01 Nov 2021, 21:30

Re: Player Starting Money

Tue 23 Nov 2021, 03:35

I never said you would have 100% of everything listed. Whatever unit you served with may lose gear regularly but all the Marine units I served with did not lose gear, you got in deep shit for that.
 
Oddball_E8
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Player Starting Money

Tue 23 Nov 2021, 06:26

I never said you would have 100% of everything listed. Whatever unit you served with may lose gear regularly but all the Marine units I served with did not lose gear, you got in deep shit for that.
No offense, but did you serve with one during a 2-3 year long war without supply lines?

So many people here seem to be thinking back on their own service and making a straight 1 to 1 comparison of lost gear.

There really is no similar situation to this in the last... well, not since WWII that I can think of, where a sizeable military campaign has ground to a halt and been without supply lines for several years.

The closest I can think of is Stalingrad, but even then they still had airdrops.

It really is an unprecedented situation and many here are just not understanding that.
 
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Ursus Maior
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue 25 Aug 2020, 20:58
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Re: Player Starting Money

Tue 23 Nov 2021, 11:18

I never said you would have 100% of everything listed. Whatever unit you served with may lose gear regularly but all the Marine units I served with did not lose gear, you got in deep shit for that.
No offense, but did you serve with one during a 2-3 year long war without supply lines?

So many people here seem to be thinking back on their own service and making a straight 1 to 1 comparison of lost gear.

There really is no similar situation to this in the last... well, not since WWII that I can think of, where a sizeable military campaign has ground to a halt and been without supply lines for several years.

The closest I can think of is Stalingrad, but even then they still had airdrops.

It really is an unprecedented situation and many here are just not understanding that.
It's really very much unprecedented. Stalingrad isn't a good comparison, though. Air transport could only deliver a maximum of 105 tons per day out of 700 tons needed. And that is already a surprisingly low number compared to mechanized formations that would have played a role in the Twilight War (at least initially). The Wehrmacht was never a mechanized or even motorized force per se, so supply demands very a lot lower. However, when the last air field was lost to Soviet troops, the pocket was already collapsing and did so finally within a fortnight or so.

But Stalingrad was a defensive operation within a pocket for the Axis troops and the Soviets had no shortage of troops, material or supplies. This is radically different from the Twilight War, where - at least in the previous iterations - the Soviet forces were as much exhausted as NATO's. Also, neither Operation Reset nor the Soviet counter offensive suffer from entrapment, quite the opposite: Both sides were in cantonment and "living of the land". So, supply levels likely would have been much better than for the entrapped Axis forces at Stalingrad, probably more akin to the German forces hoarding supplies in advance of the offensive in the Ardennes (in the winter of 1944/45): so once the initially hoarded supplies had worn down and operational targets had not been taken, i. e. Allied supply depots, the offensive stalled terminally, as fuel demands vastly outgrew available supplies.

I think, if you want to take analogies from World War Two for the Twilight War, you would have to look into the reactions of Germany in 1944 to their catastrophic collapses: during Operation Bagration in the East and the pocket of Falaise in the West, most front line divisions of Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS were smashed and the German answer were Volksgrenadier divisions. Those were - at best- second grade troops, but often rated even much lower, and equipped more like light infantry division. Emergency armament programs supplied these division with weapons of often dubious quality, especially in 1945, and the usage of captured enemy vehicles or obsolete material refurbished with equally dubious methods was not able to stop the haemorrhaging of combat power. Despite this, unfortunately, a full collapse of forces was avoided and the war prolonged for another ten months.

Of course, all of these analogies are quite anachronistic and it's questionable what would happen in a case where both warring parties are equally depleted. Maybe the Twilight War would look more like one of the brush wars of the Cold War era: lots of improvised weapon systems and very few mobile operations with technicals.
liber & infractus
 
starkillerbh
Topic Author
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon 01 Nov 2021, 21:30

Re: Player Starting Money

Wed 24 Nov 2021, 01:14

I never said you would have 100% of everything listed. Whatever unit you served with may lose gear regularly but all the Marine units I served with did not lose gear, you got in deep shit for that.
No offense, but did you serve with one during a 2-3 year long war without supply lines?

So many people here seem to be thinking back on their own service and making a straight 1 to 1 comparison of lost gear.

There really is no similar situation to this in the last... well, not since WWII that I can think of, where a sizeable military campaign has ground to a halt and been without supply lines for several years.

The closest I can think of is Stalingrad, but even then they still had airdrops.

It really is an unprecedented situation and many here are just not understanding that.
The game is not 2-3 years without supplies. It is at worst a year and that is only resupply and not counting what units have on hand themselves. MPS ships which land when we invade and have full regiments/battalions worth of TO&E. What experience are you drawing your conclusions from? I was in ACB, Marine 24 hour deploy force. I was in DS/DS, on many deployments beyond that as well, including an extended JSTF with the Army in Bolivia at 10,000 FT in the Andes with no resupply except by ground on those one lane crazy roads in the Andes, helicopters can not fly that high and there was no airfield, we were there building one. I have a lot of irl experience in this myself.
 
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Fenhorn
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Joined: Thu 24 Apr 2014, 15:03
Location: Sweden

Re: Player Starting Money

Wed 24 Nov 2021, 01:28

Just a little bit about command chain and supply:

End of 1998
<> the US has obliterated the Soviet navy, but has lost his capacity to ship more troops and equipment to Europe - as well as the ability to bring the forces already there back home. <>
This is also talked about in the flavour text in the beginning of Player's Manual.

Chapter 1 in Referees Manual 'The World at War' is a good read ;)

edit: I wrote this here because this is also referenced in the player's book, but leave spoiler talk that is not in Player's Manual out of this thread (could create a new thread in the subcategory Referees Only.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
AEB
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat 19 Sep 2020, 06:01

Re: Player Starting Money

Wed 24 Nov 2021, 04:35

There are so many possible reasons why equipment may be lost, broken or destroyed.

As pointed out there have been supply issues since 1998 due to the loss of shipping. Now add in limited nuclear strikes on logistic centres and manufacturing hubs.

Where did the characters store their equipment? 'Mechanised troops will keep items they do not routinely carry in the track or wheeled transport. If that track or transport gets destroyed then that gear is lost as well.

Soldiers tend to have two major methods of carrying kit: in their pockets/webbing and in a pack. Packs tend to be dropped at the start of engagements and it may not be possible to return to collect that pack if the character was forced to flee for their lives. That would leave them with what was carried on their webbing.

Most soldiers by July 2000 would be used to scrouging. Dead comrades, allies and enemy soldiers will be a major source of replacement gear. So I would expect a soldier to have boots, water bottles, somekind of knife (maybe not a bayonet but at least a civilian knife) and small items like tape or cord and some food. Items like first aid kits get used up and may not be replaced. Items like sleeping bags, half shelters and bulky food or kit would be stored in the pack and may have been lost or destroyed.

In the end you are the GM and you determine what is available to the characters. It really comes down to how much you want Twilight to be a mil-sim game or a survival game.
 
Oddball_E8
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Player Starting Money

Wed 24 Nov 2021, 06:15

I never said you would have 100% of everything listed. Whatever unit you served with may lose gear regularly but all the Marine units I served with did not lose gear, you got in deep shit for that.
No offense, but did you serve with one during a 2-3 year long war without supply lines?

So many people here seem to be thinking back on their own service and making a straight 1 to 1 comparison of lost gear.

There really is no similar situation to this in the last... well, not since WWII that I can think of, where a sizeable military campaign has ground to a halt and been without supply lines for several years.

The closest I can think of is Stalingrad, but even then they still had airdrops.

It really is an unprecedented situation and many here are just not understanding that.
The game is not 2-3 years without supplies. It is at worst a year and that is only resupply and not counting what units have on hand themselves. MPS ships which land when we invade and have full regiments/battalions worth of TO&E. What experience are you drawing your conclusions from? I was in ACB, Marine 24 hour deploy force. I was in DS/DS, on many deployments beyond that as well, including an extended JSTF with the Army in Bolivia at 10,000 FT in the Andes with no resupply except by ground on those one lane crazy roads in the Andes, helicopters can not fly that high and there was no airfield, we were there building one. I have a lot of irl experience in this myself.
Like I've said before... Do you have irl experience of being at war for several years without a supply line?
Because the situation is unprecedented in history.
So please stop with the appeal to authority fallacy. No matter what your experience in real life is, you haven't been through WWIII with nuclear exchanges and a several year long war on a world wide scale where supply lines have been cut off for at least 2 years (as explicitly stated in both rulebooks) and the description of soldiers in many of the flavour texts of the book include them having patched uniforms and walking or riding horses because there's almost no fuel or working vehicles.

I could write a long reply, but Fenhorn and AEB summed it up nicely.
 
starkillerbh
Topic Author
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon 01 Nov 2021, 21:30

Re: Player Starting Money

Wed 24 Nov 2021, 10:51

Just your opinion and having no experience stop telling those of us with actual experience that it doesn't count for anything.
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