joaoperru
Topic Author
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon 19 Oct 2020, 14:46

Re: Damage from firearms

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 08:54

I would like to "bump" this post for the following reason.
It's a month and a half we are playing, 7 sessions or so. Three major shootout. In one shootout bullets were on target 12 times. Only one was critical. For eleven times as a Referee i had to figure out how to explain them why that bullet didn't wound them in a bad way. A lot of glancing hits, ricochet, fragments.... aaaand we started laughing after a while. And we're laughing even now everytime one gets hit and it's not a critical (85% of times). To the point that we're going back to a D&D way of just saying; you are hit, you lose 2 HP. And i HATE it.

How do you manage it? The fears of my initial post one month ago are getting super real.

So what i ask is: do you like the way it is? Do you manage it "D&D" way? How do you explain that to your players? E-v-e-r-y t-i-m-e? Cause we're not talking about math and possibilities here... Shots usually get a lot of maluses, to the point that going for 2 successes is really really hard. And i continue to dislike the fact that the more difficult a shot is, the less dangerous it is IF IT HITS. Nonsense.
 
User avatar
Fenhorn
Moderator
Posts: 4428
Joined: Thu 24 Apr 2014, 15:03
Location: Sweden

Re: Damage from firearms

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 09:15

It's not that hard to get extra successes, especially if you push the skill roll (which is one of the core mechanics in the game). If 85% are just one hit, then I guess, that your players (and your NPCs) are not that good in Ranged Combat and/or you are shooting with a lot of negative modifiers.
I have done solo playing (we are going to play, all of us, when we get the physical game) and I can't say that I have the same experience as you. My two PCs in that solo game (none where soldiers) caused critical injuries a decent number of times (with pistols and hunting weapons, low ROF weapons) and they also got critical injuries themselves by enemy fire.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
HorusZA
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat 28 Nov 2020, 08:48

Re: Damage from firearms

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 09:57

How do you manage it? The fears of my initial post one month ago are getting super real.
There is a bit of a dilemma here, one which I struggle with myself:
On the one side one wants a somewhat realistic simulation of modern military conflict on the other one also wants a game.
If characters were to perish or get maimed on a regular basis, the game part would suffer ("Okay, here's Bob Version 4 ready to join the party..."). On the other, breaking verisimilitude and suspension of disbelief can also have a negative impact on one's enjoyment of the game.
I don't know what the solution is other than: make sure you set the expectations up-front to that everyone knows if you're running a hyper-realistic game where characters will die on a regular basis (which may result in ultra-cautious and potential un-fun behaviour) or a more action movie vibe with plenty of flesh-wounds and close shaves.
 
joaoperru
Topic Author
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon 19 Oct 2020, 14:46

Re: Damage from firearms... Part 2

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 11:11

I've already run modern hyper realistic campaigns. And you manage the system in some ways: in reality you hit a lot less than in games, and you deal a lot more damage. See GURPS for that. Perfect to hit and to damage system, with all the modern combat expansions. And you "save" your players in different ways. Sometimes cheating when they would die by a struck of bad luck, using special points to save their lives or, like here, being the only ones that can push their rolls. You HAVE to give an edge to the players, or it all goes down to frustration.
Here everything is balanced, ruleswise. Everything works. Hp are right, i like that a couple of hits from a 7.62 bring you down even if they dont struck vital areas... or three 5.56...
Problems arise when you have to narrate the scene. Glancing hits? damn it's far more difficult to get a glancing hit than an upper torso one. And how do you narrate a normal hit to the head? or to the torso? After a while it all goes down to "you lose 2/3 hp" and that's all...

Don't say please that is easy to do criticals. Yes they happen, but if you use maluses right, and you're not a Navy Seal, it happens roughly 1/5 of the times on average... we play in 6 players, gone through 3 firefights with plenty of opponents, and those are the results.
 
User avatar
Fenhorn
Moderator
Posts: 4428
Joined: Thu 24 Apr 2014, 15:03
Location: Sweden

Re: Damage from firearms... Part 2

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 12:55

<>
Don't say please that is easy to do criticals. Yes they happen, but if you use maluses right, and you're not a Navy Seal, it happens roughly 1/5 of the times on average... we play in 6 players, gone through 3 firefights with plenty of opponents, and those are the results.

Someone that has D D and uses ROF 2 will hit roughly 50% of the time and 25% of all the time he hits, it will result in two (or more) successes and the chance of getting more than one success will of course be higher if he uses other dice than d6s for his attribute and skill. This is without pushing, pushing is a vital part of the game and will greatly increase your chance of creating successes. Sure this will decrease the reliability, but that is not that hard to fix after a battle.


But obviously you have experienced something else or maybe this is not enough. The easiest way for you to deal with this and keep the rules is to create non-critical injuries. Lets say four d10 tables with various graphic hits that are less dangerous than those on the critical injury tables, but more than nothing.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
User avatar
aramis
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri 14 Jun 2019, 20:34
Location: Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: Damage from firearms... Part 2

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 13:24

Hi all!
Went deep in the combat system and came out with these thoughts: firearms combat may function as it is, but as a Referee i think i will have problems in running a (sort of) realistic combat where a 5.56mm, the majority of times, will *just* do 2 points of damage for example to the head, or to the torso. Simple as that.
Reaching 2 successes to do a crit can be very tough. I really cannot imagine all the various ways to invent the circumstances to explain to my players why 85% of the times they lose some hit points and that's all. Grazing bullets all the way?
I come from realistic rpgs (GURPS above all), in which, like in reality, it's quite difficult to hit in the middle of a fight, but if you hit the job is done. One way or another.
Is there something that i miss here? Is it right that the more difficult a shot may be, the less dangerous it is? Maybe a melee hit, but the firearm hit location should be the quintessential of the randomness of a wound (aiming at location aside).
Is there someone else that shares my thoughts?

(sorry for my english, i'm not a native english speaker.)

Thanks to all.
My experience is the average is 3, but I've seen as much as 7. (Autofire).
—————————————————————————
Smith & Wesson: the original point and click interface...
 
joaoperru
Topic Author
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon 19 Oct 2020, 14:46

Re: Damage from firearms... Part 2

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 13:57

I'm sorry but you're missing the point of my question, or maybe i'm not really able to explain myself.
I'm not talking about probabilities, simply put just hitting is more probable than hitting with a critical, just because you need one success, vs 2 or more (you always put in the equation that people has full auto weapons, with plenty of ammo which couldn't be always true).
So, being more probable means it happens more times. (in you example 75% normal hit, 25% critical... a bit better than my experience but it's correct).

I'm asking (again) how do you narrate the fact that more bullets hit without doing special things than those which do?
Last night someone took a hit of 3 hp in the head by a machine gun, and kept running because he managed to do the CUF check, another got hit by another 7.62x54 bullet in the leg, no critical, kept running.
How do you explain that to your players? Do you embrace that D&D style "you lose 3 hp?"
Am i the only freaking one here that is not able to always hit with a critical (NPCwise, they dont push)? i'm frankly surprised by your answers... 3 to 7 successes? hey, what are we talking about, are we playing the same game?
 
User avatar
Fenhorn
Moderator
Posts: 4428
Joined: Thu 24 Apr 2014, 15:03
Location: Sweden

Re: Damage from firearms... Part 2

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 14:22

I'm sorry but you're missing the point of my question, or maybe i'm not really able to explain myself.
I'm not talking about probabilities, simply put just hitting is more probable than hitting with a critical, just because you need one success, vs 2 or more (you always put in the equation that people has full auto weapons, with plenty of ammo which couldn't be always true).
<>
I used ROF 2 in my example, something that a hunting weapons and pistols can do, that is not full auto and will consume on the average seven bullets. Using ROF 1-2 is the norm (SCB). To shot a single bullet is mostly often done by snipers or if you are low on ammo, using more ROF than that (for those weapons that can do that) is if you really are cornered and could be seen as fire panic. Also remember that the players, sometimes even the NPC (if the Referee is mean), should push their rolls when they can. This can of course damage the weapon sometimes, but that is easily fixed with some weapon maintenance, something that the group should do anyway especially after they have played around crawling in the dirt.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 671
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Damage from firearms... Part 2

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 14:48

Also remember that the players, sometimes even the NPC (if the Referee is mean), should push their rolls when they can.
I've been wondering about enemy NPCs pushing rolls so glad to see it confirmed that they can. Given that you cannot suffer even a jammed weapon without pushing I think NPCs should be pushing rolls a lot to get realistic results like jams etc. I don't think it's mean for the referee to play NPCs as if they were PCs, with a strong desire to cause lethal damage and win the firefight at the risk of suffering malfunctions.
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 671
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Damage from firearms... Part 2

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 14:58

Someone that has D D and uses ROF 2 will hit roughly 50% of the time and 25% of all the time he hits, it will result in two (or more) successes
Not sure this is right. My understanding is that D D hits roughly 30% of the time and ROF 2 causes suppression if the base dice fail to hit.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests