joaoperru
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Damage from firearms

Wed 08 Sep 2021, 16:57

Hi all!
Went deep in the combat system and came out with these thoughts: firearms combat may function as it is, but as a Referee i think i will have problems in running a (sort of) realistic combat where a 5.56mm, the majority of times, will *just* do 2 points of damage for example to the head, or to the torso. Simple as that.
Reaching 2 successes to do a crit can be very tough. I really cannot imagine all the various ways to invent the circumstances to explain to my players why 85% of the times they lose some hit points and that's all. Grazing bullets all the way?
I come from realistic rpgs (GURPS above all), in which, like in reality, it's quite difficult to hit in the middle of a fight, but if you hit the job is done. One way or another.
Is there something that i miss here? Is it right that the more difficult a shot may be, the less dangerous it is? Maybe a melee hit, but the firearm hit location should be the quintessential of the randomness of a wound (aiming at location aside).
Is there someone else that shares my thoughts?

(sorry for my english, i'm not a native english speaker.)

Thanks to all.
 
paladin2019
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Re: Damage from firearms

Wed 08 Sep 2021, 22:42

I'm not sure this is a problem. Do you want a game as deadly for PCs as GURPS ( :lol: ) or pre-RED Cyberpunk? Is an average hit cap of ~4 too much? If so, you can tweak the the hit capacity calculation or the damage dealt. Or both. Another option is to change the firing paradigm; basic to hit chances are based on quick shots (T2k 1E's take) rather than the current aimed shot basis (like in T2k 2E)

In regards to difficulty and risk, many games divorce difficulty from damage, the latter being a constant range, like D&D and earlier T:2k. Others integrate the two, like Shadowrun. Then, games like Cyberpunk and Savage Worlds are hybrids with margin of success improving damage dealt. This edition has switched its methodology from earlier versions, and perhaps what you're familiar with. For best integration, I'd suggest reviewing how Savage Worlds does damage if you want to make house rules generally divorcing attack difficulty from damage.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Damage from firearms

Wed 08 Sep 2021, 23:03

Can't say that it is particularly hard to get two successes, especially if you are using 1-2 ROF and is pushing your skill roll. The pushing mechanics is a core mechanics in YZE-games, not only does it increase your chance to hit a lot it also increases your chance of getting more than one success.

YZE-games can be very deadly, this is most likely the most deadly of them all (well, Alien RPG).
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
baldrick0712
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Re: Damage from firearms

Thu 09 Sep 2021, 02:39

p71 - "Normal damage points represent fatigue, bruises, and flesh wounds – painful, to be sure, but not fatal"

So yeah, for non-critical wounds you more or less do have to come up with a plausible explanation for why the player's character survived a head shot. Perhaps they were hit by a ricochet that had already lost most of its energy, or it was just a graze, etc.
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Damage from firearms

Thu 09 Sep 2021, 12:55

Can't say that it is particularly hard to get two successes, especially if you are using 1-2 ROF and is pushing your skill roll. The pushing mechanics is a core mechanics in YZE-games, not only does it increase your chance to hit a lot it also increases your chance of getting more than one success.

YZE-games can be very deadly, this is most likely the most deadly of them all (well, Alien RPG).
We've only had one larger firefight so far in our test-run and one of my lead player's almost lost his character and is now expecting to loose him during the next session. The party was lit up by enemy automatic weapons in fire teams and on one BMP-1 and a ASU-85. Previously the enemy AFVs had destroyed the player's (NPC driven) only AFV, a German spotter tank (thinly armored as it was).

Background: The players are pre-Kalisz on a relief and support mission for the 5ID. Basically, they're German Bundeswehr (plus a Polish liason and a US SF scout) and are supposed to guide artillery support for 5ID retaking Kalisz before SHTF there.

They've stopped at a Polish territorial army academy, which is now run by kids as a center of operations for their resistance movement (cf. 'The Children's Crusade' from the box set). They needed to evacuate the academy due to a superior force of Polish communist militia imminently attacking the academy. The players just managed to scramble off with the last children in softskins, when the enemy arrived with AFVs and three squads in trucks. As enemy forces approached, they began laying down fire on the trucks and other vehicles the players rode in.

One player 4x4 was hit and damaged in the tires, but the players themselves suffered no casualties. It came close to that several times, though, when players started failing drive rolls and even fumbling then after pushing, nearly mauling some of the kids, when the player's 4x4 drove into the kid's civilian car and its ad hoc built trailer.

Bottom line is: Base damage might seem low at 1 for pistols, 2 for 5.56 rifles and 3 for 7.62 rifles or machine-guns. However, since the crit value is usually just one point higher than base damage, one additional success, or two if the target wears regular armor, will give you a crit. With 2D8 and 2D6 for short burst fire, that's easy to accomplish.

Additionally, you can always use additional successes to inflict additional hits, even on multiple opponents, if the additional successes come from ammo dice. This will also inflict CUF rolls on the enemy, which in turn might suppress them. But even then, a regular fireteam with 3 soldiers carrying assault rifles and 1 carrying a machine-gun will generate around 8D8 and 12D6 (assuming an average 3D6 per gun fired) in a firefight, but might actually generate 24D6, if armed appropriately and using all weapons to full potential. Yes, this will use up 80-100 rounds per round on average, but that's mute point, if salvage afterwards reaps a harvest of guns and ammo the enemy never got to use.
liber & infractus
 
HorusZA
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Re: Damage from firearms

Fri 10 Sep 2021, 14:30

I did some analysis a few months ago (alpha rules, so a few things may have changed. The "Severe Injury" rule, for example, is gone) which showed the probabilities of an instant kill, serious injury, etc.:
viewtopic.php?f=127&t=7131&p=53612#p53612
 
Lystra
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Re: Damage from firearms

Fri 10 Sep 2021, 17:47

Ummm... Play it a few times. We've had a really high player mortality rate. Successes and additional wounds from ammo die happen ALOT! My party has been shot to shit, most of my current group is nursing critical wounds. t's been very realistic. Some firefights the dice gods smile and the party survives with a few nicks and bruises and others go real bad real quick. Last firefight my party got into, the party suffered 3 critical wounds in the first round. It can all go sideways fast, one crit changes the whole encounter. My party went from being a group of murder hobos attacking everyone to being VERY cautious about engaging in a gunfight.
 
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omnipus
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Re: Damage from firearms

Fri 10 Sep 2021, 19:15

Yeah, I'd say don't go tinkering with it without some extensive playtesting. Honestly I find it strikes a nice, realistic balance where most players CAN tank a rifle shot or two, even to the head -- but on the other hand they're well aware that any single bullet can end their life, if the odds go a little different. I have a slight house rule on headshots that helps a little bit with that one thing, making them consistently feel more serious by inflicting automatic suppression, but that's it.

This is rifles you're talking about, also. The first time the players come up against, say, a mounted HMG -- well, every single shot is terrifying lethal. As it should be. At least in my experience the game actually leads players to make smart choices about when to engage, when to bug out of a fight, etc. And they still will die, with some regularity.
 
leonpoi
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Re: Damage from firearms

Sun 12 Sep 2021, 13:58

What’s the head shot house rule? Is love to know
 
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omnipus
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Re: Damage from firearms

Wed 15 Sep 2021, 05:59

Automatic suppression, unless it's fully stopped by armor.

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