paladin2019
Posts: 432
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Re: House Rules (1.0 edition)

Sun 07 Nov 2021, 21:21

Interesting discussion re. MGs. However, I don't see ROF 6 being any different for an LMG compared to an Assault Rifle; they are both spitting out lead in more or less equal quantities and equally fast. Maybe the problem is just that the weight of an MG and its bipod are not being given sufficient credit. Both would tend to improve the accuracy of automatic fire. Maybe just give MGs a +1 for firing when prone?
The real world difference is ammo capacity and reliability. Machine guns are built for both. This was part of the intent of the Stoner 63; everything is an MG receiver so you mitigate both the reliability issues in the MG configurations and bring down the per unit price of the usually far fewer MGs. The result is everyone has ~2 lb tax for the minimal benefits of commonalty with the LMG.

RE: dropping the Minimi for various automatic rifles, I was under the impression the BA was still using the L86 SAW and didn't adopt the Minimi until the mid-aughts HK redesign of the SA80. As previously stated, no US element would !replace it for another decade and a half after the game's time period. (The Marines still have and maintain SAWs, but the gunner has options between it and the M27 based on what the boss wants them carrying. More to follow with the ongoing the Marine rifle squad reorganization.)
 
baldrick0712
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Re: House Rules (1.0 edition)

Sun 07 Nov 2021, 23:53

The real world difference is ammo capacity and reliability. Machine guns are built for both.
In which case why not take that and incorporate it into the game? Make MGs less likely to break down or jam. This could be handled with an increase to the REL stat, or reducing the number of 1s rolled by some amount (-1, - half) when Pushing a Roll. I just dislike the idea of MGs magically having more suppression capability when firing the exact same number of rounds as an Assault Rifle as it seems like trying to achieve some purported property of MGs, i.e. suppressive fire, by giving them different laws of physics.

Alternatively, if the 5+ house rule works and is popular, explain what it actually represents.

[EDIT]

Ammo Capacity is already a bonus (I alluded to this in an earlier post). The fact that in a post-apocalyptic setting you might want to conserve ammo doesn't alter the fact that a 100 round belt requires less reloads than a 30 round magazine - which is an advantage. I also think we are missing the importance of the bipod - which already gives a +1 for scoped rifles in the RAW. Why not just say any weapon with a bipod gets a +1, any weapon with a scope gets a +1 (but Aiming is a Slow action), and if it has both, it gets a +2.
 
paladin2019
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Re: House Rules (1.0 edition)

Mon 08 Nov 2021, 03:35

Unfortunately, MGs of the era are not routinely equipped with (or even really set up to mount) daylight scopes. The PVS-4 and TVS-5 mounts allowing a base configuration ACOG to be mounted are the main exception.

For bipods, are you suggesting that a bipod gives LMGs and gimpys a +1 to hit, too, instead of the -2 or -3 for hip firing? If so, does a tripod or vehicle mount do the same?
 
leonpoi
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Re: House Rules (1.0 edition)

Mon 08 Nov 2021, 03:36

My thinking here is that a +1 for a bipod might make sense for a single shot scoped rifle, but the rules could be different for MGs because they are being used differently.

The hits / suppression on 5s would only be when deployed (bipod or tripod). Logically it would be related to the idea that while a rifle and MG shooting the same ROF would be putting the same amount of lead down range, the MG is designed for it - it’s more stable because it’s heavier and is supported by the bipod / tripod. That should mean that bursts from a MG are going to be more controllable. That could be reflected by some rule that gives it a better chance to hit or suppress. Since the MG is differentiated by controllability in automatic fire then it seems ok in my mind to link this somehow to the ammo dice. eg It could be re-rolls, it could be hits on 5 after a certain ROF, it could be 2 5s count as a 6 etc etc

Then, if one agrees with the premise this far, it’s down to which is easier to implement + remember + “feels about right” in terms of not being overpowered. For me, re-rolls might mess a bit with the push mechanic + take time. Doing something on 5s feels nice because it means that weapons designed to be effective when lots of bullets are being fired get a bonus when lots of bullets are being fired (5/6 on ammo dice).

And that’s my thinking !
 
baldrick0712
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Re: House Rules (1.0 edition)

Mon 08 Nov 2021, 08:50

For bipods, are you suggesting that a bipod gives LMGs and gimpys a +1 to hit, too, instead of the -2 or -3 for hip firing? If so, does a tripod or vehicle mount do the same?
First of all, it's -2 for hip firing isn't it? (-1 for pistols, carbines and SMGs, -2 for anything else, Players Manual p63) so not sure where you're getting the -3 from.
You raise a valid point about vehicle mounts. This makes the +1 I suggested for firing when prone with a bipod somewhat messy as it raises questions about vehicle mounts, and I don't like messy.

My go-to mil sim is the Combat Mission series of computer games that I've played for years and one thing I've always found remarkable is how few casualties MGs cause in that game. Usually they've only caused 1 or 2 casualties by the end of a scenario. This does suggest that they are area attack suppressive weapons on the whole, or I'm just not using them right.

For a great explanation of MG theory, see this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ9V1kt5UhE

The whole "Combat Mission Basics" YouTube series is excellent. Here's another that highlights the advantages of heavier, bipod/tripod mounted MGs over SAWs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKCGmqZ ... 6e&index=7
 
paladin2019
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Re: House Rules (1.0 edition)

Mon 08 Nov 2021, 15:46

Hip firing. Firing without bipod, tripod, etc. The penalty is -2 for a LMG and -3 for a GPMG. I said nothing about aiming.
 
baldrick0712
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Re: House Rules (1.0 edition)

Mon 08 Nov 2021, 16:25

Hip firing. Firing without bipod, tripod, etc. The penalty is -2 for a LMG and -3 for a GPMG. I said nothing about aiming.
Sorry, my misunderstanding. I see it now (Players Manual p65). This pretty much invalidates my suggestion of +1 for bipod then, as this is the default (no modifier). I would probably not bother house ruling anything for MGs - they already have greater ammo capacity, and usually greater range, than a rifle of the same caliber. If you guys want to do something to increase suppression then fine but I will probably just use the RAW.
 
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omnipus
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Re: House Rules (1.0 edition)

Mon 08 Nov 2021, 19:27

I don't think anyone is going to yell at you for using the RAW, I just personally find that it makes MGs very lackluster.

As leonpoi got at, my perspective on this (and house rule) is based around the far superior rapid shot grouping when firing from a deployed position. You're right that an MG is no better than a rifle when fired like a rifle, and in most cases worse (hence the penalties in the RAW, although I think those may be excessive?)

But from a bipod or tripod (or vehicle mounted position), you're able to take full advantage of sustained, controllable fire that a rifle cannot match, and in most cases either a higher rate of fire or a higher caliber, both of which significantly add to the pucker factor, ie - suppression.
Author, Central Poland Sourcebook -- now available on DriveThruRPG
 
leonpoi
Posts: 137
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Re: House Rules (1.0 edition)

Tue 09 Nov 2021, 02:38

Check this. Start at 4:00 minutes
https://youtu.be/4NVPPTs6Z7Q

This one at 3:00 minutes
https://youtu.be/rQh2n4Lgc4E

And this one at 5:00
https://youtu.be/0x6ntFONOXQ

It strikes me that those penalties are pretty large - maybe -1 and -2 and not -2 / -3 are more appropriate.

Alternatively, perhaps one can propose that these guns cannot be aimed unless they are deployed - so the -2 always applies for a LMG and the unarmed penalty is -3 for a GPMG. That’s probably what I’ll do - a GPMG seems to be hard work because it’s not designed to be shot offhand and is super heavy!
 
sgt
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Re: House Rules (1.0 edition)

Tue 30 Nov 2021, 20:06

Good list.
A skill change to break up Recon, Persuasion, and maybe Tech is high up there
Any more thoughts on this?
As in the recent Initiative discussion, I'm evaluating some big changes there as well, not sure how I want to play it yet really though.
I must admit that I don't have actual game experience yet... but I think I'd like to bring in another stat to go alongside with CUF, something like OODA (Observe-Orient-Decide-Act) in Twilight 2013. The second factor for the initiative would be encumbrance, and this is where we may give a bonus for some weapons (if we feel it's needed). I'm not yet sure if the RAW initiative cards would still work or if it's just easier to abandon them and play with a D100.

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