sgt
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Ammo Dice + consumption of ammo

Sun 18 Jul 2021, 09:39

A few examples:
A. Using 6 Ammo Dice ("full auto"):
  • Odds to get at least one hit: 66.5%
  • Expected ammo consumption: 3.5*6 = 21 dice
B. Using 3 Ammo Dice ("burst fire"):
  • Odds to get at least one hit: 42.1%[/dice]
  • Expected ammo consumption: 10.5 dice
C. Using 1 Ammo Die ("eg. pump-action shotgun")
  • Odds to get at least one hit: 16.7%
  • Expected ammo consumption: 3.5 dice

Questions:
1. Ammo being scarce, with the odds above, is it really worth it to use ammo dice? Even with huge ammo consumption the odds are "meh". With a single ammo die it seems just wasteful.

2. If I load 6 rounds to each of my M16A1 magazines, I will still be able to get the maximum ammo die effect out of the remaining ammo, correct? Is this not bothering anyone else?

Sorry, I know there's a loooooooooong existing ammo die thread somewhere but it's from the times of the Alpha and I don't what has been changed. Also, I'm trying to limit the subject to ammo consumption.
 
baldrick0712
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Re: Ammo Dice + consumption of ammo

Sun 18 Jul 2021, 13:27

1. If you miss on your actual attack but roll an ammo symbol on any of your ammo dice the target will have to pass a CUF test or become suppressed. If they do become suppressed, any other combatants in their hex will also have to pass a CUF test or become suppressed. This is quite significant as it makes the target and potentially several others in the same hex lose a turn. So, using ammo dice increases the likelihood of the target (and any adjacent targets) being affected by your attack (suppression or suffering more damage or additional hits).

2. You are correct. Loading each mag with just 6 rounds for a ROF 6 weapon would most likely use less ammo without changing the ammo dice mechanics in any way but you will have to reload more often, which will cost a Fast action or potentially a Slow action if you fail your Ranged Combat roll to reload. If you are so low on ammo that this seems like a viable option you are probably better off taking single shots.
 
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omnipus
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Re: Ammo Dice + consumption of ammo

Tue 20 Jul 2021, 20:10

Yeah, it's kind of a glitch and an exploit but it comes at a fairly significant cost.

I can say from experience that while the odds may be not super high, suppression and critical hits are the absolute key to life and death in a serious fight. Getting that one extra hit can often be the difference between life and death for a PC or the whole party. What your ammo situation is at the time surely plays into that (which is another way I like that the system reinforces reality) but I'd encourage most characters not to be too stingy with their ammo if they're actually in danger. Fire superiority works in this game.
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Fenhorn
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Re: Ammo Dice + consumption of ammo

Tue 20 Jul 2021, 20:44

When we played Mutant: Year Zero, which is an apocalypse world with far less ammo that what the T2K world has, my players always managed to have ammo. I don't think that will be a problem when we start playing T2K.

I can't even imagine my players would sunk so low so they would start to use gamey exploits in a TRPG (you can probably find such things in all RPGs), but if that would happen I would have a talk with them.
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werewolfhunter
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Re: Ammo Dice + consumption of ammo

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 12:10

I was thinking the very same thing. Minus the "hard core" math of it. I just looked at the simpler math of, to hit with 1 bullet you had to miss with 5. I just keep seeing images of 80's action movies, of waving around the guns like they're brooms. It is one of the few areas that I'll more then likely be house ruling on after play testing a couple of games with my players input. More then likely it'll be an option for "controlled burst" where half the ammo that is rolled is used but can only suppress the target. Also this weekend, for a friends birthday, we're going out and shooting a couple full auto guns. So it'll be a little bit of "hands-on research" as a "untrained" base line. It's not much of a stretch for people to put less ammo in a magazine then it'll hold. Some still believe that you "have to put" less bullets into a magazine then it'll hold. So putting 20 into a 30 round magazine, isn't that far off of what "normal/real" people do. So in game terms, they are getting the benefit of shooting up to 36 bullets and only use 20. With of course re-loading a lot.
 
sgt
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Re: Ammo Dice + consumption of ammo

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 16:45

Back from the cottage - thanks for all the responses.
1. If you miss on your actual attack but roll an ammo symbol on any of your ammo dice the target will have to pass a CUF test or become suppressed. If they do become suppressed, any other combatants in their hex will also have to pass a CUF test or become suppressed. This is quite significant as it makes the target and potentially several others in the same hex lose a turn. So, using ammo dice increases the likelihood of the target (and any adjacent targets) being affected by your attack (suppression or suffering more damage or additional hits).
-
I can say from experience that while the odds may be not super high, suppression and critical hits are the absolute key to life and death in a serious fight.
Good points regarding suppression. Especially, if using the auto-suppress rule for NPCs.
I can't even imagine my players would sunk so low so they would start to use gamey exploits in a TRPG.
This isn't a problem for us either. It's more like if a situation presents itself... E.g., I have 5 bullets left. Should I reload now that I have the time to do it? If we're short on ammo, it is tempting to make that cost effective 5 AD attack first.
Some still believe that you "have to put" less bullets into a magazine then it'll hold.
Never head that one before! Then again, all my weapons experience is from the 362 days I served in the Finnish army.

But OK, now that I know I understand the rules correct I should try the system with RAW.
 
werewolfhunter
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Re: Ammo Dice + consumption of ammo

Thu 29 Jul 2021, 13:16

I plan on running it RAW also, just one of the few rules that I can see with a minor change.

@ sgt
I believe that its a held belief dating way back when magazine reliability wasn't very good. some would say, "only load 25 rounds in a 30 round mag". I've heard others say they never load more than 15 rounds in a glock mag (normally a 17 rounds). Mostly with claims that to "fully load" a magazine could cause a load malfunction.

"hands-on research"
After this weekend and doing the limited shooting that we were able to do, It wouldn't take much to put more rounds on target. We were able to do short controlled burst of approximately 3 to 6 rounds per trigger pull and get most of the bullets onto the target. Mind you, we were close, target no moving, shooting back, etc. In the end much like Sgt said and what I said above mostly will be playing the RAW. I think I'll be pointing out that they should only add 1 ammo die for most shooting (which is what others were pointing out in the other games).
 
andresk
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Re: Ammo Dice + consumption of ammo

Tue 03 Aug 2021, 08:31

I believe that its a held belief dating way back when magazine reliability wasn't very good. some would say, "only load 25 rounds in a 30 round mag". I've heard others say they never load more than 15 rounds in a glock mag (normally a 17 rounds). Mostly with claims that to "fully load" a magazine could cause a load malfunction.
The myth only stems from keeping loaded magazines in storage for extended periods of time (read decades). While there is some truth in that the springs will suffer some fatigue, you have to be either very unlucky or try to be incredibly stupid for it to actually mess up your magazines. Just banging your mag against a hard corner will do more damage to it's functionality.
So in game terms, they are getting the benefit of shooting up to 36 bullets and only use 20. With of course re-loading a lot.
You can never roll more ammo dice than the actual bullets left in the magazine, the magazine capacity has no effect in gameplay terms other than how much pew pew you can dispense before reloading.
 
werewolfhunter
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Re: Ammo Dice + consumption of ammo

Thu 05 Aug 2021, 13:53

In game terms it would be the benefit of 36 bullets.

"You can add as many ammo dice to your attack as you like, from zero up to the rate of fire (RoF) rating of your weapon or the number of rounds left in the magazine, whichever is lower."

If your RoF is 6 (as the M16A1) you can use 6 ammo dice because it is lower than the 20 bullets left. You basically do the same thing with a full magazine but can only use the 30 bullets you have loaded.
 
andresk
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Re: Ammo Dice + consumption of ammo

Thu 05 Aug 2021, 14:45

In game terms it would be the benefit of 36 bullets.
[...]
If your RoF is 6 (as the M16A1) you can use 6 ammo dice because it is lower than the 20 bullets left. You basically do the same thing with a full magazine but can only use the 30 bullets you have loaded.

So a larger magazine doesn't benefit you in any way. As long as your magazine has at least a capacity of 6 you can use the same cheesing exploit of only having exactly 6 rounds.
In actual play without trying to use the exploit, it benefits the players in terms of offering a larger magazine size and less reloads. Loading less rounds doesn't make sense unless you're trying to cheese the system.
As a referee if my players would be trying to use the exploit as such, I'd have a talk to them in any case.

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