RichardPF
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U.S. SMGs?

Wed 30 Jun 2021, 19:25

How come there aren't any SMGs in the U.S. weapon list?
 
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CherryC0p
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Re: U.S. SMGs?

Wed 30 Jun 2021, 23:18

The US typically doesn't use SMGs in day to day operations.

If you do want a period accurate SMG that some specific units may have used, you could always take the MP5 from Alpha and use that as the US's SMG.
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omnipus
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Re: U.S. SMGs?

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 00:47

Vehicle crew would be the main exception. MP5s and even Grease Guns would have still been in use into the '90s, unit and role dependent. Never would have been issued to infantry for the most part, doesn't mean you couldn't find them.
 
paladin2019
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Re: U.S. SMGs?

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 01:03

How come there aren't any SMGs in the U.S. weapon list?
There is. The MP5.

Seriously, the grease gun was gone from the inventory shortly after Desert Storm. If you want one for a support trooper (the last personnel to have them were M88 crews) you can use the Swedish K (the Chuck G M45), which has likewise been excised, increase the Dam and Crit to 2/3, and decrease the reliability one step. (The guns were worn out by the Team Yankee era and no replacement parts were procured.)
 
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omnipus
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Re: U.S. SMGs?

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 01:17

I bet plenty of NG or reserve units still had them, and many would have cropped up in later years. Maybe mostly stateside though.
 
paladin2019
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Re: U.S. SMGs?

Thu 01 Jul 2021, 01:48

I bet plenty of NG or reserve units still had them, and many would have cropped up in later years. Maybe mostly stateside though.
By Desert Storm, they had generally lost all the goodwill they built from WWII to Viet Nam due to the loss of maintenance infrastructure, much like the M60. We're talking "pull the trigger and the whole magazine is going, whether you want it to or not" levels of no maintenance. Replacing them with an M16A2 was much quicker than M9s for 1911s.
 
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aramis
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Re: U.S. SMGs?

Sat 21 Aug 2021, 00:16

How come there aren't any SMGs in the U.S. weapon list?
There is. The MP5.

Seriously, the grease gun was gone from the inventory shortly after Desert Storm. If you want one for a support trooper (the last personnel to have them were M88 crews) you can use the Swedish K (the Chuck G M45), which has likewise been excised, increase the Dam and Crit to 2/3, and decrease the reliability one step. (The guns were worn out by the Team Yankee era and no replacement parts were procured.)
SpecOps troops still had access to them, but they also had access to Uzis and other items, including M1911
The official SMG was the XM177, which leads to the M4 Carbine/AssaultRifle. But it's chambered in a rifle cartridge. Specifically for supply reasons. It's a shortened (11.5" barrel, stock shortens by 2 inches when collapsed) AR15/M16 variant.
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paladin2019
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Re: U.S. SMGs?

Sat 21 Aug 2021, 00:57

The XM177 series was never a general issue item. It is a submachine gun because DOD specifications do not include pistol caliber ammo, only barrel length, automatic fire, and small arms ammo. As for grease guns, my squadron didn't divest until after redeploying from Bosnia in '97. The tankers and 88 crews had them, though the guns didn't deploy.
 
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aramis
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Re: U.S. SMGs?

Sat 21 Aug 2021, 04:23

The XM177 series was never a general issue item. It is a submachine gun because DOD specifications do not include pistol caliber ammo, only barrel length, automatic fire, and small arms ammo. As for grease guns, my squadron didn't divest until after redeploying from Bosnia in '97. The tankers and 88 crews had them, though the guns didn't deploy.
Not in the army, but it lead to the M4 specification, which is, and the XM177 was in the supply chain as the official SMG. It was adoped by the USAF under a different code (but the same stock number), GAU something..
The XM177 was a different stock than the CAR-15, which was its direct predecessor. And was supposed to be general issue for tankers from the early 70's to the mid 1980's.
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paladin2019
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Re: U.S. SMGs?

Sun 22 Aug 2021, 04:54

The XM177 was never general issue for anyone. Even SMUs purchased them directly from Colt with what we now call MFP 11 funds rather than having them issued by the Army and funded via MFP 2. The M3 series was never superseded in service by another SMG. GAU-5/A's are 10 and 11.5 inch barreled weapons in the M16 family that lack forward assists. The designation changed to GAU-5A/A with the 14.5 inch barrel (still in 1/12 twist) that removes the weapon from the SMG definition. They later were upgraded to 1/7 twist (for the New M855 round) and reclassified to GUU-5P when the USAF equipment coding system created a new equipment category for non-aircraft guns. The USAF version has never had a burst limiter.

Point being, the closest thing to an official SMG for the US Army in the Twilight War period is the Grease Gun (in those rare conventional units that actually had SMGs), not the already superseded (especially in special operations units) XM177. Unless there is a change to the weapons history, the only SMG Americans are likely to get their hands on is an Uzi/MP2 from an allied NATO trooper unless they are a tanker or mechanic.

(And CAR-15 is properly Colt Armalite Rifle Model 15, the brand name given to the platform when Colt bought it from Armalite. CAR very quickly became a generic term as, and short for, carbine. Which isn't an SMG; the barrel is too long for the DoD's SMG classification.)

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