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CherryC0p
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Suppression Impossible from Single Shot Miss

Sun 13 Jun 2021, 00:33

Currently, RAW, a single shot from any gun that misses does not have the capability to suppress via Ammo Dice.

This has been discussed in the Discord over the last few days and I wanted to get people's opinions on this here as well.

Currently the "fix" for this that we've come up with is to just have players always roll 1 ammo die, even if they're firing a single shot. A success on the ammo die will still suppress, even if they miss the main attack roll. Right now it's better to fire at 1 ROF, miss, and suppress on a 6 on the Ammo Die, than it is to choose to fire once and possibly miss.

This benefits snipers taking single shots at targets. Getting shot at by a high power weapon is a big deal, and it just feels wrong for a sniper to spend a round lining up a Sniper Aim action only to miss and... have nothing happen? Like how far over the targets head does that round go that a miss doesn't have a chance to suppress.

Ovbiously saving ammo is a argument for not always rolling 1 ROF, but is the Suppression trade off really worth it? Suppression as a game mechanic is very powerful, taking someone out of the fight for a round or 2, doubly so for Panic Spreading.
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omnipus
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Re: Suppression Impossible from Single Shot Miss

Sun 13 Jun 2021, 04:20

Doing that immediately invalidates actually firing 1 ROF die as an option. It pretty much invalidates 2 ROF dice, as well.

If you try to fix every "problem," you end up breaking more things. Is it bad to leave it as it is, and let common sense be the guide? So the sniper missed his shot. Do I like my chances that he's going to miss the next one, or am I going to voluntary take cover or go prone or otherwise not just stand there to find out?
 
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CherryC0p
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Re: Suppression Impossible from Single Shot Miss

Sun 13 Jun 2021, 04:49

Yeah personally I don't have an issue with a single shot that misses, actually just... miss.

Most smart players will seek cover when taking incoming fire, especially from a distance that a sniper would shoot from, and not knowing exactly where the rounds are coming from.
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Suppression Impossible from Single Shot Miss

Sun 13 Jun 2021, 12:38

If a single shot is fired and no hit was achieved, but suppression should still be a thing, I could come up with two ideas to achieve that.
  • Maybe in this very special case, CUF D characters have to roll anyway, but get a +1 (or even +2) for an effective D8 (or D10).
  • Or everyone still gets to roll, but at an automatic +1 or even +2 modifier.
It's a bit a patchy for a work around, but as was mentioned, you cannot get all the details right in a game. Especially, if the game is designed with fewer details to speed up game play (which I totally support).
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baldrick0712
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Re: Suppression Impossible from Single Shot Miss

Sun 13 Jun 2021, 15:11

For single shots specifically from scoped, aimed weapons like sniper rifles, you could rule the following...

No success on d12. Check CUF for suppression if 1-3 rolled
No success on d10. Check CUF for suppression if 1-2 rolled
No success on d8. Check CUF for suppression if 1 rolled
No success on d6. Never check CUF for suppression

The logic behind this is that the larger dice sizes have better chances to hit and therefore a near miss is more likely to have just parted the target's hair rather than being miles off target!
 
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CherryC0p
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Re: Suppression Impossible from Single Shot Miss

Sun 13 Jun 2021, 17:47

Yeah the discussion on the discord mostly centered around snipers, being used by the players. People felt that talking the time to set up a sniper shot, shooting one bullet and then missing with no chance to suppress was unfair. As stated, it'd be better to roll 1 RoF ammo die and possibly empty the mag to achieve Suppression, and if ammo is scarce that's not ideal.
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Re: Suppression Impossible from Single Shot Miss

Sun 13 Jun 2021, 18:27

I like the idea of granularity, in the system and can follow the underlying argument. However, I dislike making such a radical change to the basic rule that results of 1-5 are all the same as a result. It's quite a large change for this game mechanic for such a small or niche problem. Additionally, your list makes it sound a bit like only one die was rollen, when in fact two dice are always rolled: one each for attribute and skill.

One might combine our two ideas into the following:
  • No success on D12 + D12 (Attribute A, Skill A). Check CUF for suppression with no modifier. Explanation: These are highly skilled individuals or shooting under very favorable conditions and one might assume they at least came exceptionally close to a hit.
  • No success on D10 + D10 or better: Check CUF for suppression with modifier +1.
  • No success on D8 + D8 or better: Check CUF for suppression with modifier +2.
  • No success on a worse dice pool. Never check CUF for suppression.
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baldrick0712
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Re: Suppression Impossible from Single Shot Miss

Sun 13 Jun 2021, 18:46

  • No success on D12 + D12 (Attribute A, Skill A). Check CUF for suppression with no modifier. Explanation: These are highly skilled individuals or shooting under very favorable conditions and one might assume they at least came exceptionally close to a hit.
  • No success on D10 + D10 or better: Check CUF for suppression with modifier +1.
  • No success on D8 + D8 or better: Check CUF for suppression with modifier +2.
  • No success on a worse dice pool. Never check CUF for suppression.
But... what about D12+D6, D10+D8 etc.?

[EDIT]

Ah! I missed the "or better" bit. Makes sense now
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Suppression Impossible from Single Shot Miss

Mon 14 Jun 2021, 09:21

I concede that it remains a little rough around the edges, especially for the most extreme cases where the dice are most widely apart between skill and attribute level. As per the chance of success table in the Player's Manual (p. 46), rolling D8 + D8 has a 61 % chance of success (85 % pushed), but rolling D6 + D12 has a 65 % (88 %) chance. By my sketched out rule, the D6 + D12 dice pool would get treated worth however, despite being marginally better.
I still could live with that, though, since it's fairly easy to use and should occur only rarely. Having stats of A and D generate a dice pool probably won't occur unless a character has insane natural talent (attribute A), but almost no training (skill D). Already the other way around is highly unlikely, e. g. being extremely clumsy, but supremely trained in firearms. By means of modifying a dice pool, this should never happen, since adding and subtracting dice levels is supposed to happen by evening out the dice levels. So, starting with a AA dice pool (or DD) shouldn't give you AD/DA.
liber & infractus
 
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CherryC0p
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Re: Suppression Impossible from Single Shot Miss

Mon 14 Jun 2021, 16:35

Yeah I agree that this is a very niche case.

If a sniper completely misses on a single shot, then you must've not been setting the shot up right.

Slow aim is a +1, braced/ mounted is another +1, elevated another +1. Asuming the sniper on the group has the best Ranged or Agility, that can very quickly become a A+A, D12+D12 attack roll. Completely whiffing on even a pushed 2d12 roll is extremely unlikely.

Even if you only get 1 success and the damage is eaten by Cover/Armor, that still has a chance to suppress. A single shot from a pistol, shotgun or assault rifle from within short range I can see missing at a reasonable distance from the intended target as to not be within Suppression "range" thematically.
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