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KastorKrieg
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Posts: 37
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 20:25

Single and burst fire?

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 10:49

The rules seem to cover only either firing a single shot all of the 10s+ of your turn, or firing some wishy washy full auto mode (when you choose to use the Ammo Dice).

There's nothing to reflect the standard military training of using the single fire mode which should be more accurate than the suppressive full auto (which is not really used by modern military aside from desperate situations, maybe mag dumps as reaction to contact, etc.). Then again, I can declare that I used a single Ammo Die or two and it turns out I fired 1 or 2 shots and got a small bump to effect of my fire.

Do you guys have any ideas and solutions on how to best reflect single fire? And after that, special fire modes like 3-round bursts on SMGs and rifles and so on?
 
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omnipus
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Joined: Mon 22 Jun 2020, 20:58

Re: Single and burst fire?

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 11:13

Yes: don't roll all your ammo dice. 2 or 3 ammo dice works pretty well most of the time.
Author, Central Poland Sourcebook -- now available on DriveThruRPG
 
baldrick0712
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Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Single and burst fire?

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 12:01

The rules seem to cover only either firing a single shot all of the 10s+ of your turn, or firing some wishy washy full auto mode (when you choose to use the Ammo Dice).

There's nothing to reflect the standard military training of using the single fire mode which should be more accurate than the suppressive full auto (which is not really used by modern military aside from desperate situations, maybe mag dumps as reaction to contact, etc.). Then again, I can declare that I used a single Ammo Die or two and it turns out I fired 1 or 2 shots and got a small bump to effect of my fire.

Do you guys have any ideas and solutions on how to best reflect single fire? And after that, special fire modes like 3-round bursts on SMGs and rifles and so on?
3 ammo dice is effectively 3-round burst mode. All the weapons restricted to 3-round bursts have ROF=3. Rolling 3 ammo dice can lead to you expending 18 rounds but this is over a 5-10 second time period so it represents multiple 3-round bursts. I would not worry about the number of rounds expended sometimes not being an exact multiple of 3 rounds - you can assume a couple of rounds were fired in single shot mode before the selector switch was flipped to 3-round burst.

Sorry for multiple edits...

Rolling 1 or 2 ammo dice could even be rapid single shots rather than bursts. The system is quite abstract. The rules suggest that rolling no ammo dice at all is a carefully aimed single shot, like a sniper would make.

I think the original idea behind the 3-round burst was that the muzzle would not rise so much as with 4+ automatic bursts, making it more like an aimed single shot with a greater chance of causing at least 1 hit. If you want to house rule that you could allow one ammo symbol to be converted to a success symbol if you only roll 1 ammo dice.
 
baldrick0712
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Re: Single and burst fire?

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 13:27

On the wider history of automatic fire, I think in some ways the greater prevalence of automatic weapons on the modern battlefield was due to a study of WWII soldiers that found they were more likely to fire their weapon if it was automatic than if single-shot, so it was an attempt to get more soldiers to do something positive in a battle, even if it was just to "spray n' pray".
 
baldrick0712
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Re: Single and burst fire?

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 13:35

This system has lots of potential for house ruling (not necessarily a bad thing). We really need some way of increasing hit chance of automatic fire at short ranges so that blind firing (literally firing from full cover against target you cannot see) could be used for at least suppression.

Something for "recon by fire" would also be good - spray suspected enemy positions with rounds to try to get them to reveal themselves.
 
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omnipus
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Re: Single and burst fire?

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 23:47

The issue with that second one is that you have to not know they're there to begin with!

Some talk was done regarding shooting-for-suppression (and an increased role for MGs in particular) a while back. Nothing really came of it, unfortunately. Same with linking range to automatic fire effectiveness in some more direct way. I don't think anything like an elegant solution was ever found, even as a house rule... the ammo dice are very clever but they bring with them some very specific limitations that are hard to work around. If you wanted to free yourself up from those limitations, you could start doing stuff like rolling D8s for ammo dice at short range or having hits on 5s and 6s.
Author, Central Poland Sourcebook -- now available on DriveThruRPG
 
baldrick0712
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Re: Single and burst fire?

Sat 05 Jun 2021, 02:23

I believe it was Gary Gygax who once jokingly said, "the secret we should never let the GM know is that they don't need any rules". Ultimately a good GM will let the players try stuff that isn't strictly covered by the rules. If a player says he wants to blind fire his M9 pistol over the top of a crate to get the enemy's heads down and then dash to another position, the GM can simply be generous and make a few CUF tests to see if the enemy's overwatch is spoiled. If a player says he wants to fire a carefully aimed 3-round burst at an enemy machinegunner to increase the chance of taking him out, the GM can just declare 3 rounds expended and flip him a +1 modifier for this one attack, maybe at the cost of a Stress Point. At the end of every session, things that worked can be kept in mind for future sessions, and things that didn't can be quietly forgotten.
 
Jeremysbrain
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri 21 Sep 2018, 05:15

Re: Single and burst fire?

Sat 05 Jun 2021, 03:41

Off the top of my head, you could model it by giving players a +1 modifier to their "single-shot" no gear dice attack at the cost three ammo.
 
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omnipus
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Re: Single and burst fire?

Sat 05 Jun 2021, 20:36

Gotta be cautious about stuff like that. The rules exist as they do already in a form that somewhat abstracts combat in a way that, I very strongly believe, actually much better represents real actions than any system that gives characters total control over their shots. The single-shot rule was already added somewhat reluctantly as an exception.

If you start doing things like saying "you get a +1 and you only use three rounds," you very much risk creating a new optimal path action, which will then become the only thing players ever do -- completely undermining the whole point and functioning of the system. And then that will trickle also into other systems. Their weapons will never jam, and never degrade. They will never face ammo scarcity. And you'll undermine the sense of story and surprise that comes out of the system as it exists now.

I'd strongly, strongly recommend against this.
Author, Central Poland Sourcebook -- now available on DriveThruRPG
 
baldrick0712
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Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Single and burst fire?

Sun 06 Jun 2021, 10:46

Gotta be cautious about stuff like that. The rules exist as they do already in a form that somewhat abstracts combat in a way that, I very strongly believe, actually much better represents real actions than any system that gives characters total control over their shots. The single-shot rule was already added somewhat reluctantly as an exception.
I get what you're saying, and I agree with it despite my comment about the GM being free to do what he likes. Each to his own. It would be just as valid for a GM to say to a player who is pleading for special bonuses for "short, controlled bursts" etc. that this is already factored into their AGL/STR ability and/or Ranged Combat/Heavy Weapon skill levels. Characters with high AGL/STR or skill levels can be assumed to be already benefiting from using short, controlled bursts or single shots at longer ranges or whatever is deemed good firearm usage. My comment was really just to remind people that "hey, it's your game".

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