FIAChmielu
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun 06 Jun 2021, 21:21

Re: Single and burst fire?

Mon 07 Jun 2021, 18:43

I feel a lot of deja vu. All of these discussions about the ammo dice have already been had in previous threads. FL already listened to the feedback and introduced the "single shot" mechanic to cover any kind of edge cases, where it would seem odd eg. wanting to take a single shot but end up emptying out your bolt action rifle.

Points to consider
  • The ammo dice do not mean "You pull the trigger and empty 6+4+3+5 = 18 rounds at the enemy in full auto.
  • The ammo dice mean "During your turn, your character fired a total on 6+4+3+5 = 18 rounds at the enemy target is some or other controlled manner.
  • As Omnipus very aptly put it - this mechanic is very integral to the whole system, changing anything here can and will affect other parts.
  • As Baldric pointed out - the "controlled firing" is already factored in via the attribute and skill dice. More skilled characters can achieve better results with less ammo dice.
Yes the system is abstract, and that is the point. Once you "get it", it should be clear that it models what it is meant to model very well.
I understand how ammo dice mechanics should work. But I`m not comfortable with it. I fell like I’m not in full control of my own character and it still should be an RPG game and not tactical board game right?

I`m only describing desired action and the outcome is somehow random. I know that rolling dices is all about this – describing my actions and then rolling to find out if my character succeed ;) but somehow I`m not convinced about this particular aspect. It makes me fell like I`m only bystander and not my character that is performing those actions – in other words, my immersion is broken by this.

I think I need to work this thing around in my head. But currently I`m not comfortable with it at all. Like I have mentioned. I`m old school gamer that loves old and complicated mechanics ;)

Cheers
Peter
 
paladin2019
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: Single and burst fire?

Mon 07 Jun 2021, 19:28

I understand how ammo dice mechanics should work. But I`m not comfortable with it. I fell like I’m not in full control of my own character and it still should be an RPG game and not tactical board game right?
This right here. This is a game. You are not in full control of your character, in any RPG. There is an element of random chance involved in anything important. You choose to shoot at an enemy, not shoot an enemy. You choose to consciously limit yourself to shooting once or until you hit. You don't have the control on the two way range to precisely count and control every trigger pull. No one does, either at the table or playing the home game.
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Single and burst fire?

Mon 07 Jun 2021, 19:41

FIAChmielu, have you ever read any accounts of real gunfights? Some are crazy. Guys emptying mag after mag at virtually point blank range without hitting a thing. There's a world of difference between shooting on a range and shooting under combat conditions whilst someone is shooting back at you. Miami-Dade 1986 FBI shootout is worth studying for the volume of rounds fired compared to those that actually did any damage - and the range was literally only a couple of car widths. One guy walked up to an agent and shot him dead whilst he was reloading, it was that close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBGfKtuo2AM - movie made of the shootout
 
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omnipus
Posts: 485
Joined: Mon 22 Jun 2020, 20:58

Re: Single and burst fire?

Mon 07 Jun 2021, 20:26

Yeah. Not to make the point too sharply, but if you feel like you're in full control of your own actual human person if you were in a gunfight... well, all the evidence in the world suggests you're delusional.

I've owned every edition of T2K and played them all (except 2013). I don't find any of them especially playable from a roleplaying perspective, since I'm aware of the many developments that have come in the genre since. They are slow and clunky in their own very different ways (which means all the roleplay comes to a halt while you spend an hour plus on just combat) and I feel like they generate unrealistic outcomes at least as often as a more abstracted system does. I do have complaints about some of the 4th Edition (and haven't been shy about saying so, although I typically offer up potential solutions as well), but on the whole it is fairly quick and it generates outcomes that are very plausible in most situations.

I wish there were a few more specialties that, instead of mostly +1s across the board, gave you certain feats you could attempt in combat that not everyone has access to; for me personally this could address almost every significant issue I've had with the system.

Different strokes for different folks, sure -- but if you haven't actually tried a few combats, you really ought to.

And meanwhile, yeah, anyone who's real invested in this topic should probably read at least a big chunk of the giant Ammo Dice thread we had going here for a long while. Some of it's probably outdated now that the rules have been tweaked a bit, but it pretty much covers a lot of the thought process and ideas a bunch of people brought to things -- some of which made it into the final game!
 
andresk
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon 05 Oct 2020, 16:38

Re: Single and burst fire?

Tue 08 Jun 2021, 08:57

Yeah. Not to make the point too sharply, but if you feel like you're in full control of your own actual human person if you were in a gunfight... well, all the evidence in the world suggests you're delusional.
Very much this.

Think about any of the following moments - playing an FPS video game, participating in an airsoft/paintball battle or milsim exercise.
Playing an FPS being the first as that provides the most "realistic" feedback in terms of neutralising the enemy. While milsim/field training provides the most realistic atmosphere, the casualties are mostly decided by referees after a firefight.

What % of the time are you consciously keeping track of all the shots you fired? How often do you keep shooting until your target drops/you lose sight? How often do you just "fire one 3-round burst" and stop shooting, giving up your fire superiority, not to reload but just because?
In both video games and real life I've kept track of ammo at the level of "Pretty sure I'm half empty", never have I successfully kept track of every round. Even when counting, I'm still off by 1 or 2 rounds. And everything going downrange is doing so in single aimed shots or controlled pairs, in rapid succession. And it keeps going as long as there is an enemy target visible and standing.

When not talking about edge cases, there are three reasons to stop firing (and take cover)
  • You run out of ammo (or reload before moving up)
  • You do not see the enemy (or enemy neutralised)
  • You take return fire
In my own experience through many years of field exercises these hold true in pretty much any situation. Even in situations where I've been playing OPFOR, laying in ambush and telling myself "okay take a few shots and retreat" and even then the listed points held true, did not stop firing until one of the above was true. Let me know if your experience has been different.
 
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Gaddeborg
Posts: 166
Joined: Tue 18 Feb 2014, 17:40

Re: Single and burst fire?

Tue 08 Jun 2021, 23:12

I generally agree with the system as it is, and I think it gives enough control to be able to limit oneself to “up to 6 rounds” with one ammo die and so on. For me, the lack of control adds to the feeling of chaos and adrenaline (as mentioned by many above).

However, if the ability to shoot short controlled bursts and double taps are of big importance to the feeling of the system, this would mostly be an issue if you played a spec ops soldiers and the like right? For normal grunts, it would be ok to use the rules as is?

Then, why not create a ranged combat specialisation called “controlled bursts” (or something)?

Using this specialisation, a double tap use two rounds but still adds one ammo die (ignoring the number of the ammo die). A 3-round burst gives you two ammo dice for the cost of 3 rounds. However, if the spec ops guy presses the roll, the ammo expenditure is counted as normal.

I would not use this specialisation unless I had a player that was very persistent about this being an issue, however.
 
andresk
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon 05 Oct 2020, 16:38

Re: Single and burst fire?

Tue 08 Jun 2021, 23:49

Other than throwing the combat system way off balance, this doesn't seem to accomplish much. The ammo dice describe your whole turn. The single shot was already added to cover cases where it did make sense to fire only one shot. Other than having an absolutely cosmic advantage, think about these specialities in terms of when your rolls fail. So this spec ops guy pops out from around the corner, shoots twice at the guard, misses and then just keeps looking at him for some 5 seconds, every time they miss? If the same event was described by the ammo dice, you could have a situation where the spec ops guy lets off two shots and drops the guard, or can only shoot twice before the guard takes cover/returns fire. Or anything up to n-amount of shots being fired by either party leading to any outcome.
The attribute and skill dice narrate your characters proficiency, the ammo dice narrate the situation.
 
cheeplives
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat 28 Nov 2020, 09:39

Re: Single and burst fire?

Tue 08 Jun 2021, 23:54

I had also suggested allowing CUF to affect ammo usage. You could houserule that all Ammo Expenditures are reduced by 1/2 of the CUF Die value for the character (to a minimum of Ammo dice rolled). That means. So a character with a D CUF and a character with an A CUF both go to town with their 3 Ammo dice... they both (coincidentally) expend 18 rounds according to their Ammo dice. The D-CUF Greenhorn uses 15 shots (1/2 of D6 = 3) while the A-CUF Operator only uses 12 rounds (1/2 of d12 = 6).

You could make it more pronounced by using the full CUF die, but that seems a bit much to me. Or, if you like adding rolls (which some folks do) you could allow characters to roll their CUF die whenever they use Ammo dice and reduce the rounds used by the result on the CUF die... a bit swingier and adds some extra steps that should center on the 1/2 die suggestion above.

In the end, I like the concept of how Ammo dice work and plan to use them in my upcoming game unchanged until I see how they work in practice.
 
paladin2019
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: Single and burst fire?

Wed 09 Jun 2021, 02:55

1. Pretty please, with sugar on top, STOP USING DOUBLE TAP! It grates on my trainer nerves. Controlled pair is the proper engagement technique.

2. You're rolling two dice on a single shot attack. Adding 1 or more to the damage if both hit works perfectly well as a simulation of the results of a controlled pair, with or without a failure drill.

3. The intent of the 3-round burst is to create a 400m shotgun' to increase the probability that one of the three rounds will find its target. Multiple hits from a 3-round burst are not intended or expected. It is simulated perfectly well with the expenditure of a single ammo die.
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Single and burst fire?

Wed 09 Jun 2021, 07:12

3. The intent of the 3-round burst is to create a 400m shotgun' to increase the probability that one of the three rounds will find its target. Multiple hits from a 3-round burst are not intended or expected. It is simulated perfectly well with the expenditure of a single ammo die.
How so when you only count a success on the ammo die if you roll one or more successes on the base dice?

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