KastorKrieg
Topic Author
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 20:25

Jamming weapons

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 10:03

from "NPCs" thread
baldrick0712:
I wish there was a way of using weapon REL as the trigger for jams so that they happen purely randomly whether you push your roll or not. Practically every RPG has some sort of fumble mechanic for this but in T2K 4e fumbles seem kind of voluntary. In another thread someone was querying the point of pistols. Stoppages at the worst possible moment are precisely the sorts of situations that make carrying a side arm worthwhile. The mechanic for jams also doesn't really sit well with the weapon descriptions and stats. The M60 is described as being prone to jamming and has REL 4 compared to the REL 5 of most other weapons but the mechanics of the game don't really make it jam more often, they just make it completely break more quickly.
and
omnipus:
That is true. I've wondered about that particular rule change a bit, but even before it, jams had nothing to do with your weapon reliability. The only sorta-easy change I can think of is that if you ever roll mishaps equal to or more than your current reliability, you get a jam, whether you pushed or not. That's only likely to punish people who let the reliability get down to 2 or 3, but it does at least put a weapon with a lower overall reliability ceiling closer to there all the time. And who knows, if you're firing high ROF a lot...

Anything else I can think of becomes exceedingly complex.
My solution for the above issue would be - "if a player rolls two or more Mishaps in a regular roll, without pushing, a Reliability Roll is made with a single die to see if the weapon jams. To avoid a jam, a player needs to roll a success on that die. A d12 die is used for Rel 5 weapons, d10 for Rel 4, d8 for Rel 3, d6 for Rel 2, while Rel 1 weapons jam automatically."
 
andresk
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon 05 Oct 2020, 16:38

Re: Jamming weapons

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 10:21

Maybe a bit too crunchy, but would provide some variety for players who play it really safe. Omnipus' suggestion sounds good as well.
Anyone up for crunching the numbers and figuring out the statistics for each rule?
 
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omnipus
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon 22 Jun 2020, 20:58

Re: Jamming weapons

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 11:17

That's pretty good Kastor. I don't love that it adds yet another roll, but it'd be not very often so maybe it's fine if you're just not getting enough jamminess in your game.

Another mild thing you could do is reduce reliability by 1 whenever you get 2 or more mishaps, even if you don't push. It's not a jam, but gets you closer to one and puts a regular amount of wear and tear back in even if you have someone who never pushes.
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Jamming weapons

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 11:56

I quite like that approach. It's as if weapon reliability was A, B, C, D, F. You could even use that notation on character sheets to remind you that two or more mishap symbols requires a REL test, with F being an automatic fail. It at least addresses the problem of enemy NPCs hardly ever jamming because the GM is strongly discouraged from having them push their rolls. It also makes the M60 machinegun more prone to jamming like it should be according to the weapon descriptions (actually the M240B description - which says it replaced M60 due to it being prone to jamming).

The sad thing about this iteration of T2K is we do seem to be generating a lot of "fixes" for the RAW. I suppose you can play fine with the RAW as long as you aren't bothered about some things like this.
 
andresk
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon 05 Oct 2020, 16:38

Re: Jamming weapons

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 16:30

I'm too dumb to figure out compound probabilities, but here are the numbers for possible mishaps (in %) using different Attribute/Skills dice as well as for different number of ammo dice.
Image

Notice that using anything over one ammo die becomes quite likely to produce at least one mishap. Add to that the attribute/skill chances and you might be rolling a lot of reliability rolls. Would be interesting to hear from someone actually playtesting this to see if it becomes a hassle or is a welcome change every now and again.
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Jamming weapons

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 16:44

Notice that using anything over one ammo die becomes quite likely to produce at least one mishap. Add to that the attribute/skill chances and you might be rolling a lot of reliability rolls. Would be interesting to hear from someone actually playtesting this to see if it becomes a hassle or is a welcome change every now and again.
rapid or auomatic fire causing stoppages is fine by me, especially if it's that enemy PKM that was pinning down my entire fireteam that jams!
 
andresk
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon 05 Oct 2020, 16:38

Re: Jamming weapons

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 18:29

That wasn't the focus of my post. After rolling two mishaps you still have to roll for reliability which would surely make the jams on well maintained weapons still rare, just that you might be having your players roll a lot of reliability rolls if they decide to use ammo dice at all (abouts every 10th round when using 3 ammo dice). That's why I'd be very much interested in seeing this in action and hear the feedback from that.
Also would be interesting if someone smarter than me figured out which homeruling would produce more potential jams. Just by going with gut feeling, Omnipus' way seems to be the safer one (at least as long as you maintain your weapons) because rolling 5 or more mishaps has a really low chance (~1/500 in worst case scenario - D&D+6 ammo dice) while Kastor's with same rolls (D&D + 6 ammo and A reliability) would clock in at ~1/4 chance of jam. (Take all numbers with a heap of salt, I think I'm on the right path, but I didn't fail mathematical statistics for no reason)
 
cheeplives
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat 28 Nov 2020, 09:39

Re: Jamming weapons

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 19:50

Here's an option: Weapons Jam if they roll a number of Mishaps greater than or equal to their Reliability Rating on either their initial or pushed roll.
 
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omnipus
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon 22 Jun 2020, 20:58

Re: Jamming weapons

Fri 04 Jun 2021, 23:51

Yeah, that's what I suggested in whatever other place we were discussing this. I like it in concept; it doesn't require another roll, it scales rarity with reliability in a very non-linear way; etc. But, it is one more thing you need to keep track of, especially if your reliability ratings CHANGE during the course of a battle.
 
leonpoi
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri 08 Jan 2021, 05:10

Re: Jamming weapons

Sat 05 Jun 2021, 04:56

I like that idea. In a way it is saying that small stoppages are dealt with abstractly and are just assumed as part of normal firing (failure to eject, missing round in a belt) - sure the weapon stops but it’s simple to sort out. When something more serious happens that now you have to stop and really deal with it - then it’s a “Jam”

Would you still have the reliability decreasing on 1’s on Pushed rolls? I.e. both mechanisms are not mutually exclusive (which I think is fine)? I’m thinking yes - i.e. only the Jam rules change

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