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Viperion_NZ
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Rule Clarification: Suppression (2 questions)

Fri 30 Apr 2021, 04:08

Beta Rulebook, p67:
PANIC SPREADS: If you fail a CUF roll and get suppressed, all friendly fighters in the same hex as you must also immediately make CUF rolls to avoid suppression too.

I haven't cut anything out; that's the entire paragraph.

Question 1: The situation: There are 4 NPC's in a hex. Ronson lays down a barrage of fire, rolling a hit. After damage is resolved, the hit NPC makes a CUF check and fails. As a result all of the other three NPC's make CUF checks. If even one of those fail, strictly by RAW, the other two have to make another CUF check because of the above paragraph, even though they have made that check already.

This can be explained; Albert got hit, screams, and hits the dirt (suppressed). Bert, Charlie, and Dave all have to make a CUF check to avoid panic. Bert and Charlie make it, but Dave fails, screams, and hits the dirt. This alarms Bert and Charlie, who are now two team members down, and they have to make another CUF check.

Alternatively, only Albert and Dave get suppressed and Bert and Charlie tough it out, which I think is probably the intention of the rule, but that's not how it's written currently. (and if the paragraph above is the intention, that's a hell of a lot of die rolling to be doing....)

Question 2
Albert (the poor bugger) gets hit, but the hit does enough damage to take him out. He therefore doesn't have to make a CUF check (being dead, and all). In this situation, Bert, Charlie and Dave don't have to make a CUF check, because no one has failed CUF check, even though poor old Albert is lying there with his brains on the dirt. Is that correct?

The alternative here is that Albert still has to make a CUF check, even though he's dead. This seems a little odd, as well.

What are people's thoughts?
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Rule Clarification: Suppression (2 questions)

Fri 30 Apr 2021, 07:26

Question 1: I do think the intention is that when Albert got hit and failed his CUF test, Bert, Charlie and Dave have to roll as a reaction to that and that's it. At least that's how I interpret how this work (so no reaction to the reaction.

Question 2: In stressful situations you can suffer stress and be forced to make a CUF roll (p.77-78).
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Re: Rule Clarification: Suppression (2 questions)

Fri 30 Apr 2021, 15:40

Question 1: I do think the intention is that when Albert got hit and failed his CUF test, Bert, Charlie and Dave have to roll as a reaction to that and that's it. At least that's how I interpret how this work (so no reaction to the reaction.

Question 2: In stressful situations you can suffer stress and be forced to make a CUF roll (p.77-78).
I agree with both of those answers... but wouldn't mind clarification in the book about Question 1.
 
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Viperion_NZ
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Re: Rule Clarification: Suppression (2 questions)

Mon 03 May 2021, 11:26

Question 2: In stressful situations you can suffer stress and be forced to make a CUF roll (p.77-78).

Doesn't recognise rule

Looks up rule

Huh, neat. That kind of solves that although I'm not a fan of "when the GM feels like it" rules in general.

Has thought

Wait a minute.....

(again all of this is strictly rules-as-written)
With Albert dead, Bert, Charlie, and Dave return fire, getting a hit on Ronson. Ronson has to make a CUF check for being hit, and passes. He takes one point of damage. Now according to that table on page 78, he must make another CUF check to avoid 1 stress damage for being damaged, and any of Ronsons Buddies (capital B for Buddy) also have to make a CUF check to avoid taking 1 stress damage for seeing their Buddy get hurt. And if any of them fail their CUF rolls, all the friendlies in the same hex have to make a CUF check also, per my original question.

This seems.... very very weird.

Either:
  • You make 1 CUF when you get hurt, and whether you pass or fail determines if you also take a point of stress for being hurt (seems a bit all or nothing, and they are listed as two separate checks in two separate parts of the book), or
  • You have to make two CUF checks every time you take damage; one for being hit, and another (for stress damage) for taking damage

That's a lot of rolling....
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Rule Clarification: Suppression (2 questions)

Mon 03 May 2021, 12:06

There are one to two CUF rolls for suppressive fire. One when it actually happens. This will of course be on your enemy's turn (he is shooting at you) and then again, if you are suppressed, on your next turn to see the effect of the suppressed fire.

Being under suppressive fire will cause a CUF roll. This can cause stress damage (mentioned on p.67 and again on p.78). So if you are potentially suppressed you make a CUF roll. If you fail this roll, you will take one point of stress damage, drop prone and you are suppressed. You will loose one or two of your next actions. On your next turn, if you are suppressed, you make another CUF roll, to see how bad it is. If you succeed with the CUF roll, you loose your fast action (you keep your slow action). If you fail this second CUF roll, you loose both your actions.

Your friends that witnessed when you become suppressed also must make a CUF to see if they are suppressed as well.
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Viperion_NZ
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Re: Rule Clarification: Suppression (2 questions)

Mon 03 May 2021, 13:39

Yeah, those are the "when you're hit" rules on page 67 "Suppression" - which happens when you are hit, even if you take no damage. These are the rules we've been using so far.

But as you correctly point out, there are other situations when you might take stress damage, with the table on page 78, where you make a CUF roll and successes on that roll take away from the stress damage you would take.

The first line on that table on p78 says:

"Getting hit by a direct ranged attack or successful suppressive fire" - 1 stress

So if you are hit by an attack, are you making 1 CUF roll, or two? The Supression section on p67 mentions not a single thing about stress damage, and the the stress damage blurb on pp 77-78 don't mention the rules for Suppression, and in fact heavily imply this is not the same as Suppression because of this sentence:

" Each <hit> rolled eliminates 1 point of potential stress. If you suffer 1 or more points of stress, you also freeze, losing both of your actions on your next turn."

(emphasis added by me)

If this was a normal "Suppression" CUF roll, you'd get to roll CUF again on your turn to gain at least your slow action back, but suffering 1 or more points of stress here allows you no such roll; you just straight up lose your next turn.
 
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Re: Rule Clarification: Suppression (2 questions)

Mon 03 May 2021, 14:05

<>
The Supression section on p67 mentions not a single thing about stress damage
<>
from p.67
If your CUF roll fails, you are suppressed. This means that you immediately drop prone, suffer 1 point of stress, and will lose one or both actions on your next turn. To indicate that you are suppressed, place a SUPPRESSED marker on your token on the battle map.
On your next tun, make another CUF roll - if the roll fails again, you lose both actions. If you succeed at this second roll, you keep your slow action, but you lose your fast action. In either case, after your turn you are no longer suppressed - remove the marker.
On p.77-78 they explain stressful situations in general. The rules here say that if the CUF roll fail to remove all stress taken, you will lose both your actions on your next turn.

Technically p.77-78 doesn't contradict p.67 but there is one thing that is missing on p.77-78 and that is that under the suppressed rule (p.67), they mentioned what happens if you fail this (2nd) CUF test (you loose both actions) but also if you succeeded with it (you loose your fast action). On p.77-78, they don't mentioned this CUF success effect. This could be addressed.
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Viperion_NZ
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Re: Rule Clarification: Suppression (2 questions)

Mon 03 May 2021, 14:08

from p.67
If your CUF roll fails, you are suppressed. This means that you immediately drop prone, suffer 1 point of stress, and will lose one or both actions on your next turn. To indicate that you are suppressed, place a SUPPRESSED marker on your token on the battle map.
Well, uh, I have no defence except I am apparently an idiot lol. My bad!
 
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omnipus
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Re: Rule Clarification: Suppression (2 questions)

Mon 03 May 2021, 20:12

Yeah, I found the way these rules were presented to be confusing at first, but then I realized it's just two different ways of saying the same thing. Of course, that's still confusing, but it's not contradictory. I had missed until now the point that you take stress any time you see your buddy take damage at all. That would have made for some much more serious fights. I think it would have meant a TPK in at least one case that we played where only a couple PCs got out with a single point of damage or stress each.

One crucial clarification that might have also contributed to your confusion: I saw you say "stress damage" a few times. There's no such thing. There's stress and there's damage, two very similar but unrelated concepts. But stress is not damage and damage is not stress, by definition.
 
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Re: Rule Clarification: Suppression (2 questions)

Mon 03 May 2021, 20:28

<>
One crucial clarification that might have also contributed to your confusion: I saw you say "stress damage" a few times. There's no such thing. There's stress and there's damage, two very similar but unrelated concepts. But stress is not damage and damage is not stress, by definition.
Easy thing to do. Doesn't necessary mean that you don't understand the concept of damage and stress. Personally I have for the last couple of years played Forbidden Lands and there it is all called damage. Damage to strength (also just called damage), damage to agility, damage to wits and damage to empathy) so I am so used to call it that so I do that here as well sometimes. But you're right.

For me the only thing that is confusing about this is the effect of a successful CUF test. My guess is that the suppressed rule on p.67 (where you loose one or two actions depending on success) is the right one and the stress rule on p.77-78 where you either loose both actions or none is other stress related things. The confusing part if this is true is that they mention suppressed fire on p.77-78.
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