ant1clock
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Simple example ranged combat

Fri 23 Apr 2021, 22:19

Can I ask if, given the current beta rules, I have ranged combat correct using a very simple example.

Example Weapon M16, ROF 6, MAG 30.
Avg PC, Agility D10, Ranged Combat D8
Choosing to roll 6 ammo dice.
Result D10=7, D8=6, A1=1, A2=2, A3=6, A4=3, A5=5, A6=6
No pushing.

So a hit is scored on both base dice. Does this equal 2 damage, but spends only one ammo?
Two successes on the ammo dice. Damage can now be increased to 4 for one hit, or two hits for 2 damage and 2 damage (other combinations are available), or three hits for 2 damage, 1 damage and 1 damage?

Ammo dice total = 23 spent rounds, therefore the PC has 7 rounds left in mag?

What would happen next round if the PC didn't reload?
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Simple example ranged combat

Fri 23 Apr 2021, 22:43

Example Weapon M16, ROF 6, MAG 30.
Avg PC, Agility D10, Ranged Combat D8
Choosing to roll 6 ammo dice.
Result D10=7, D8=6, A1=1, A2=2, A3=6, A4=3, A5=5, A6=6
No pushing.
* You got two successes with your base dice. This will result in weapon damage plus one (2+1=3) to a body location. This is one bullet (well, not 100% clear on this but since you the rules say that if you are using zero ammo dice, you spend one round, I assume this is the case).
* You got two ammo successes, They can be used to either be hits on their own, either to the target you originally aimed for (another hit location doing weapon damage) or another target in the same hex (that is not harder to hit that the originally target) or they can be used to increase damage of a hit by one

You spend a total of 1+23 ammo, leaving 6 rounds in the magazine for the next round.

If you during the next round, you spend more than 6 rounds, then you simply empty your magazine and you can't get more ammo hits than the number of rounds you have. In this case (if my guess is correctly regarding ammo) this means that one round you are using because you shoot, leaving 5 rounds, meaning that you can maximum get 5 hits with your ammo dice.

Do remember that if the base dice didn't hit, then nothing hits. The ammo hits in this case still count as suppressed fire. It is very risky to use such a high ROF, it will most likely stop you from pushing the dice (many dice menas many changes to damage your weapon).
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andresk
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Re: Simple example ranged combat

Fri 23 Apr 2021, 22:49

If I'm reading things correctly, rolling double success on the attack doesn't change anything, you simply hit the target. If either roll would have passed, you'd hit the target. If you failed both, you'd miss.
So the ammo dice successes will always be increasing the damage of that single hit (or be used to hit the same target again or someone else in the same hex).
The part about not reloading was discussed in several other threads I believe. The rules dictate you can roll however many ammo dice you want, up to your ROF. BUT once you have rolled everything, you must remove any ammo dice successes that exceed the rounds in your magazine. So in your example on the second turn even if you roll 6 ammo dice successes, it's still fine. Would be the same for if you had 6 rounds left in the magazine. However if you had 5 or less, then you would have to start removing the ammo hits to be in line with the remaining ammo.
As I read it, if you have 1 round, roll a success and also an ammo die success, both count and you spend one round. So the "hit success" in itself will not expend any ammo, the only case where that is the case is when you do not roll any ammo die and spend a single round of ammo.

Edit: Fenhorn where did you get that +1 damage for the double base success? I seem to be missing that part.
 
ant1clock
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Re: Simple example ranged combat

Sat 24 Apr 2021, 00:07

The extra plus one probably comes from pg 63
DAMAGE: If your attack succeeds, you hit your target and inflict your weapon’s base damage rating on them. Each extra rolled will increase the damage by 1. Roll for a random hit location (page 72) and apply the effects of armor.

Also does that mean if you get 11 on a D12 and 10 on a D10, then you would score 4 successes. Would that be 5 damage (2,1,1,1) or 6 damage (2,2,1,1).

MULTIPLE SUCCESSES: A roll of 10 or higher on a single die (only possible with a D10 or D12 of course) counts as two successes. This means you can potentially roll up to four successes with a single skill roll (two successes on each die), if you are both skilled and lucky. With bonus beyond the first one you can achieve additional ef-fects, if explicitly stated in the rules.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Simple example ranged combat

Sat 24 Apr 2021, 00:14

If you roll four hits with your base dice with an M16, then the main target will take 2+1+1+1=5 damage and to this you could get more if you also hit with your ammo dice. Those hit could be extra damage to the base dice hit (causing +1 damage) or be hits on their own causing weapon damage (2 for an M16), but if they act as another hit, then the armor (if any) will be applied to that hit).
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andresk
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Re: Simple example ranged combat

Sat 24 Apr 2021, 01:01

The extra plus one probably comes from pg 63
Indeed it does. I must have just glanced over that part.

But as for the ammo dice I do believe the base attack roll only spends one round of ammunition if you do not use any ammo dice. If ammo dice are rolled, the ammo spent will be purely dictated by that roll. Feel free to correct me if it is stated otherwise somewhere, some of the rules have a bad tendency of being spread out over several different places in the manual, making it hard to keep track of things.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Simple example ranged combat

Sat 24 Apr 2021, 01:22

The extra plus one probably comes from pg 63
Indeed it does. I must have just glanced over that part.

But as for the ammo dice I do believe the base attack roll only spends one round of ammunition if you do not use any ammo dice. If ammo dice are rolled, the ammo spent will be purely dictated by that roll. Feel free to correct me if it is stated otherwise somewhere, some of the rules have a bad tendency of being spread out over several different places in the manual, making it hard to keep track of things.
Rules usually are written where they are first encountered. Technically I think the rules are mostly clear.

My problem (that needs to be clarified. is:
If you use no ammo dice at all, only one (1) round of ammunition is used <>
This is clear, even this is:
After you roll (and any re-roll), you sum up the D6 digits on all of your ammo dice. This is the total amount of ammunition you have spent <>
My problem comes with this line:
<> you can never roll more 'Ammo Hits' than you have rounds left in the magazine <>
The reason is, assume that you have an M16A1 and you only have three rounds left in the magazine. Then assume that you use ROF 6 (by which you are allowed) and you rolled three 'Ammo Hits'. Three 'Ammo Hits' are the maximum you are allowed to get according to the rules, but since the base dice is one hit and each 'Ammo Hits' also can counts as individual hits, this can be added up to four rounds (one for the base hit and one each for the three 'Ammo Hits'). This is where the math doesn't work. I admit this will be rare.

One way for it to work is if you interpret the rules so that you either always spend one round and then the ammo spent rules kicks in or perhaps make it more clear that you can't get more 'Ammo Hit's plus the base dice hit than you have bullets.
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omnipus
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Re: Simple example ranged combat

Sat 24 Apr 2021, 04:40

I don't think having to always remember to add 1 to the ammo dice result is the answer, either practically speaking or "what is actually written"-wise.
 
cheeplives
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Re: Simple example ranged combat

Sat 24 Apr 2021, 05:30

One way for it to work is if you interpret the rules so that you either always spend one round and then the ammo spent rules kicks in or perhaps make it more clear that you can't get more 'Ammo Hit's plus the base dice hit than you have bullets.
Personally, I'd like devs to take a little more time to clarify it in the rules and tighten up edge cases, since this is just a Beta and not the final cut. These are their rules and the less they leave to interpretation, the better. I get that there's a time crunch, but the stated reason for the Beta is to clear up confusion and tighten up the text as best as possible. Otherwise, why workshop a Beta at all?
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Simple example ranged combat

Sat 24 Apr 2021, 09:04

One idea could be to, first, only allow a maximum number of ammo dice equal to the actual number of rounds in the weapon but also add that you can't score more hits than the number of rounds.used so for example, someone that fires an M16A1 with 3 rounds left, can only use ROF 3 and can only score 3 individual hits (base die is one hit and then up to two ammo dice).
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