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Fenhorn
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Re: I hate Encumbrance Units!

Wed 21 Apr 2021, 05:50

The idea with encumbrance is that you as Referee (and as a player) quite easily can make estimates of the encumbrance of something. My desklamp for example has an estimated weigh of perhaps 1-2 kg but it is rather bulky, still I could carry it with one hand so I would set an encumbrance of 1 to my desklamp. A little bit higher than its actual weight would give it due to its bulkiness. If weight in kg would have been used instead, the desklamp would have a weight of 1,6 kg but that doesn't say anything about its bulkiness, that is something that I have to take into consideration some other way.

To carry wounded comrades (or dog) in a combat situation is covered in the combat section. To carry someone over a longer time, like a shift (5-10 hours), then you have to come up with a solution, like fixing up some kind of stretcher. The actual weight of the person is not important in that case, it is to much for you to be carrying it around in your backpack. A deer is assumed to be worth 2d6 food rations. That is 7 on the average, or 3½ encumbrance. Grenades have weight in the weapon tables (1/4 each for a frag grenade).
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andresk
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Re: I hate Encumbrance Units!

Wed 21 Apr 2021, 10:00

It is far worse than actual weights now. You have to read off an actual number anyway, but for everything, in the world that is not given an encumbrance number, you have to stop and make it up. You buddy spike the patrol dog has to be carried across the minefield. How many encumbrance units is a 30 kg dog? You kill some raiders and they have a haunch of deer roasting on the fire. How many EU is it? Oooh, I find a case of grenades in this burning humvee and I want to pull them out and carry them away. How many EU? Yeah, nobody can tell you. So the EU just adds to the headaches. It solves nothing at all. Good job. A helpful rule that is not helpful. It's like the worst sort of design "feature."
You seem to be making up problems where there are none. As previously stated carrying wounded is covered by the rules, as are the specific EU values of mentioned items. For carrying a box for a short distance I'm not sure why you would bother with encumbrance at all, it's not going to play any role in the bigger picture unless the character is dead set on carrying it with him for the next week, in which case you can just come up with a EU value, same way as you would have to figure out how much a box of grenades weighs anyways. Even for actual weight you would first check the gear/loot table for weight and if the item is not present, come up with something, I fail to see how coming up with an EU value is any different.
Some system like cheeplives suggested would be nice though.
 
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omnipus
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Re: I hate Encumbrance Units!

Wed 21 Apr 2021, 21:51

Agreed. In actual play I have a couple of times been caught backfooted trying to come up with an EU for some strange object. But the same thing would happen in a different form if I instead needed to look up the weight and dimensions of the same object on the fly. This is really just a problem of "do you understand the object in question and human capabilities, or not?" If you do, then you'll very quickly have an answer either in EU or real-world measurements, and what that means to the player, and it will work. If you don't, then your answer is likely to be slow and/or wrong. The system doesn't matter much as long as it generally gives quick, plausible results.

I do, however, like and appreciate cheeplives' questions. That's a useful tool for helping you get the right answer.
 
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Tomas
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Re: I hate Encumbrance Units!

Thu 22 Apr 2021, 10:30

The quick and dirty rule is to assume an item is simply 1 EU.
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shankfisher
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Re: I hate Encumbrance Units!

Thu 06 May 2021, 16:05

The idea with encumbrance is that you as Referee (and as a player) quite easily can make estimates of the encumbrance of something.
This is exasperating. I don't need to make up anything when I have the weight already. EU just adds another step. It's not less bookkeeping, it's more. Go look at the old game. Tons of equipment lists and gear. This game? Very little by comparison. And if I want to build my own equipment list? Oh, joy. I have to come up with EU for every item. This is the same problem with Kevin Crawford's stuff. It's a big hassle. But thanks for listening to the customer feedback.
 
cheeplives
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Re: I hate Encumbrance Units!

Thu 06 May 2021, 16:12

The idea with encumbrance is that you as Referee (and as a player) quite easily can make estimates of the encumbrance of something.
This is exasperating. I don't need to make up anything when I have the weight already. EU just adds another step. It's not less bookkeeping, it's more. Go look at the old game. Tons of equipment lists and gear. This game? Very little by comparison. And if I want to build my own equipment list? Oh, joy. I have to come up with EU for every item. This is the same problem with Kevin Crawford's stuff. It's a big hassle. But thanks for listening to the customer feedback.
Don't the Conversion Rules on page 107 in the Referee's Manual cover this, though? Divide weight in KG by 3 (round down, less than 1 = 1/2 or 1/4) to get the new Weight? It's not perfect, but it does what you're asking.
 
shankfisher
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Re: I hate Encumbrance Units!

Thu 06 May 2021, 16:23

Don't the Conversion Rules on page 107 in the Referee's Manual cover this, though? Divide weight in KG by 3 (round down, less than 1 = 1/2 or 1/4) to get the new Weight? It's not perfect, but it does what you're asking.
No, the point is that conversion is unnecessary. The EU gets you nothing. it's just a hassle. A real-world unit is quicker and easier to use. Period. It's like say, having a Walking Unit. One walking unit equals 5 km. A person can walk 4 walking units in a day. OK, but why? Why not say 20km? It makes no sense.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: I hate Encumbrance Units!

Thu 06 May 2021, 16:37

<>
No, the point is that conversion is unnecessary. The EU gets you nothing. it's just a hassle. A real-world unit is quicker and easier to use. Period. It's like say, having a Walking Unit. One walking unit equals 5 km. A person can walk 4 walking units in a day. OK, but why? Why not say 20km? It makes no sense.
EU gives you weight and bulk. A system that use kg, would only give you weight. You have to assess the bulk yourself.
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paladin2019
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Re: I hate Encumbrance Units!

Thu 06 May 2021, 23:03

Because ENC is encumbrance, not mass. A rug's is either a lot more or a lot less than its mass would indicate. A rucksack doesn't make you stronger, it makes bulk more manageable, thus you can carry more ENC. And, of course, the default is that a thing is one ENC and any other value is something the ref decides to assess.

And you wouldn't say 20km because that's painfully slow. 30 to 40 is much more accurate for a conditioned individual.

The EU gets you nothing.
;)
(Please do not officially abbreviate encumbrance units to EU. The EU exists in the game's timeline, even if it may be effectively defunct.)
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: I hate Encumbrance Units!

Thu 06 May 2021, 23:28

<>
(Please do not officially abbreviate encumbrance units to EU. The EU exists in the game's timeline, even if it may be effectively defunct.)
That is the logical abbreviation for it (the book say "... or unit for short", but since there are military units in the world, so). On my fillable character sheet I made, I first didn't use anything, just a number, but in the second version I actually wrote "EU cap" and "Combat Gear EU", but to be honest, around my table we will most likely use EP (Encumbrance Points) or just Encumbrance instead.
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