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Black Vulmea
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Re: What are machineguns? The game knows but refuses to admit it.

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 11:10

. . . if you give a machine gun a 3-hex beaten zone and make enfilading fire a thing . . .

Waitress, I'll have what he's having,
 
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omnipus
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Re: What are machineguns? The game knows but refuses to admit it.

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 11:38

We can agree to disagree, I guess, paladin. I'm very curious of the picture in your head of MG usage, because it sure seems strange to me. And anyway, by your interpretation, there is currently no way to effectively use an MG in this game.
Author, Central Poland Sourcebook -- now available on DriveThruRPG
 
andresk
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Re: What are machineguns? The game knows but refuses to admit it.

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 12:16

Machine guns, in the military definition, don't normally have a semi-auto or single shot setting. (An exception is the M2, which could have a "sniper rifle" mode.) You will always shot multiple rounds per attack and these will throw off your aim against a point target the size of a person. The interaction of the heavy weapons rules with machine guns are good, they just need one more step.
You can absolutely pull off single shots with an MG. Probably way more accurately than with a rifle as well. At 200m-ish ranges you can absolutely keep the trigger down and keep the fire on a single target. A GPMG is a 10+kg lump of steel, so even putting 7.62 downrange will barely make it move. All of this as long as it's properly deployed on a bipod of course, shooting it from a hip or purposefully covering a larger area would make sense in the heavy weapons rules context, but saying you can not properly engage single targets is blatantly wrong.
I'm talking specifically about FN MAG here as it is the MG I used while in the service, milage may vary from weapon to weapon.
 
AEB
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Re: What are machineguns? The game knows but refuses to admit it.

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 14:32

The Bren gun was used as a sniper rifle - take off the banana mag, load a single bullet - as it was accurate out to a thousand yards.

The issue in TW is what role are MGs expected to play. If ammo is in too short supply then you may as well save the effort by not lunging one around. But if you can get a couple of full belts then suddenly you possess a powerful weapon that can swing a firefight.

Plus you will have vehicle mounted MGs, both coaxial mounts and pintles.

So this is one area of the rules that really need to be addressed.
 
welsh
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Re: What are machineguns? The game knows but refuses to admit it.

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 15:23

Waitress, I'll have what he's having,
On page 3 of this pdf you'll find info on the beaten zone of the MAG58 at various ranges, assuming flat ground. It exceeds 3 hexes in every case.

https://www.semo.edu/pdf/showmegold_Mac ... Theory.pdf

The problem, as I was pointing out in the post you chose to quote, is that actually implementing rules that reflect proper employment of machine guns in an RPG is just going to make most players think something is not right, so it's best left to tabletop wargaming. If we wanted to get all simulationist about MGs we would have to account for range, elevation, the shape of the ground and so on in deciding the effect of machine gun fire. All this can do is slow down play & that's bad.

This is especially true given that this edition of T2K favours fast and simple play (and that's also its great strength IMO).
Last edited by welsh on Tue 15 Dec 2020, 15:43, edited 1 time in total.
 
AEB
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Re: What are machineguns? The game knows but refuses to admit it.

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 15:38

Probably the best compromise would be to allow MGs to shoot at more than one target for the Skill Roll - maybe give -1 for each additional target engaged - and then split the ammo dice up accordingly. This would stop MGs being just longer ranged but far heavier assault rifles.

Currently there is no effective method of using automatic fire against multiple opponents.
Last edited by AEB on Tue 15 Dec 2020, 16:01, edited 1 time in total.
 
welsh
Posts: 200
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Re: What are machineguns? The game knows but refuses to admit it.

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 15:40

So let's consider this from a practical perspective. We can treat machine guns as Ranged Combat weapons, which target individuals, or as Heavy Weapons, which target a hex. Let's look at how this would affect an attack by Deadeye Dick with an M240B, who has Ranged Combat B, Heavy Weapons B, STR B, and AGL B. He is attacking a group of three unfortunate Russians who are now reconsidering their career choices.

Let us suppose he rolls his two base dice & they come up 7, 4. He also rolls three ammo dice which come up 6, 3, 2.

If his attack is a Ranged Combat attack, he hits one Russian and scores one additional hit, which he can choose to apply to that same hapless Ivan, or to one of his buddies.

Now let's suppose we treat the MG as Heavy Weapons and treat hits by the MG as hitting any character in the target hex, player's choice. Ammo dice are treated as Ranged Combat ammo dice, i.e. additional hits, suppression, etc. I think proponents of the MGs-Are-Heavy-Weapons view would lean towards this model.

So Deadeye has hit ... one Russian, and may apply his ammo die hit to ... that same hapless Ivan, or to one of his buddies.

My point here: unless we propose some entirely new rule for MGs -- one that likely leads people to complain that MGs in the game are "wrong," as I pointed out above -- this is pretty much a wash.

What I would like to see included in the game is the use of MGs to target hexes *as hexes* to reflect the use of machine guns firing on fixed lines in defensive positions at night. This should carry a heavy negative DM (even to the point of perhaps dictating 1D6 base die only), but it's absolutely a part of MG doctrine.
 
AEB
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Re: What are machineguns? The game knows but refuses to admit it.

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 16:13

Maybe using your example we drop from Bs to Cs allowing the MG to engage 1 additional unfortunate Russian. Keep the same rolls - 7, 4 and fire all 4 ammo dice for rolls - 6, 4, 3, 2.

Now you have three hits that can be applied to 1, 2 or 3 unfortunate Russians. Given the Damage of 3 and Crit 0f 4 you hit Russian 1 twice and Russian 2 once.

Looking at it there isn't a method that seems to work under the die system for automatic weapons. You can burst into a room full of enemies, unload 24 bullets, and only score a couple of hits for minor damage.
 
welsh
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Re: What are machineguns? The game knows but refuses to admit it.

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 17:18

Not sure I get your point there? My point was, there is no difference between the Ranged Combat and Heavy Weapons scenario, unless we invent an entirely new rule for MGs.
 
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Black Vulmea
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Re: What are machineguns? The game knows but refuses to admit it.

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 17:43

The problem, as I was pointing out in the post you chose to quote, is that actually implementing rules that reflect proper employment of machine guns in an RPG is just going to make most players think something is not right, so it's best left to tabletop wargaming. If we wanted to get all simulationist about MGs we would have to account for range, elevation, the shape of the ground and so on in deciding the effect of machine gun fire. All this can do is slow down play & that's bad.

All true, but at the same time, even your suggestion I quoted is better than targeting a single hex, and it's very close to my enfilade house rule for automatic weapons from d20 Modern way back when.

I'd love to see something like what you wrote added as an optional rule for us crusty grognards.
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