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swedishtrex
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri 27 Nov 2020, 12:52

Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Sat 05 Dec 2020, 17:58

Stellar feedback and breakdown Omnipus! you hit on pretty much every spot that has gotten me to use the first more classic free league char creation method, the lifepath is just not in the right place (compared it to the mutant chronicle one that i think it mimics abit and boy...)

My though on character creation is that you either keep it verry simple like the free league basic and make uppgrades easy to come or you make deep so you create more than just stats and you also limit the problems of randomness, right now the lifepath system is not in that place and i rather see it revamped or expanded or removed in favour of fleshing out the basic system.
 
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omnipus
Posts: 398
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Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Sat 05 Dec 2020, 20:59

I would certainly rather see it expanded with some changes/fixes made! Like I said, the backstories it helps you automatically create can be super powerful and really help design who you were before the war... which after all is what a lot of people will be missing or fighting to get back (and also a giant trope of war movies, etc).

Also, I was wrong; it does say where your Coolness Under Fire starts (D), it's just presented all lowercase and not as CUF, so I didn't find it even after searching several times.
 
HorusZA
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Joined: Sat 28 Nov 2020, 08:48

Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Wed 09 Dec 2020, 08:46

Mmmh...!

Just for instance, could someone please explain to me how "Medical Aid" in a contemporary context is an "Empathy" skill? It's not as it being a skilful medic exactly necessitates a good bedside manner...

Or how hitting a target with a tank gun or artillery or any kind of mounted weapon has anything whatsoever to do with Strength?
I think that in some instances the Attribute component of a roll should be replaced by one representing the capabilities of the equipment. The latter probably contributes more to the outcome than natural agility or strength.

For example, firing an ATGW should be Skill Die + Equipment Die (1st Gen ATGW = D8, 2nd Gen ATGW= D10, 3rd gen ATGW = D12).
Tank Main Gun: Skill Die + D6 No fire control system, D8 Ranging MG or optical range finder, D10 Laser rangefinder / analog fire control, D12 Advanced Digital Fire control.

This provides, IMHO, a more accurate reflection of reality plus gives more design space without increasing the complexity of the game or breaking some fundamental conceit (rolling a set of two dice to determine success or failure).
 
paladin2019
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Wed 09 Dec 2020, 09:38

The things you reference for big guns are better represented as modifiers than replacing an Attribute. That said, Agility has far more to do with "playing a video game" than Strength and the Legion agrees. ALPHA, p46:
SPECIAL: When using HEAVY WEAPONS to fire mounted weapons, use AGL instead of STR, and when firing artillery, use INT.
To translate equipment,
ATGM: First Gen (fly the missile) -2, 2nd Gen (stay on target) +0, 3rd Gen +1
Tank Gun: No fire control +0, Ranging MG or optical collimator use sniper aim, Laser Rangefinder +1

On the subject of EMP(Medical), it is has become a common linkage in games since at least 2000 with D&D3e. That said, Empathy is the "interact with people" stat. Diagnosing a medical problem and assessing the treatment applied has a fundamental component involving this. Even House has a decent EMP, he is just too surly to use his likewise decent Persuasion for charm.
 
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Vader
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Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Wed 09 Dec 2020, 11:10

On the subject of EMP(Medical), it is has become a common linkage in games since at least 2000 with D&D3e. That said, Empathy is the "interact with people" stat. Diagnosing a medical problem and assessing the treatment applied has a fundamental component involving this. Even House has a decent EMP, he is just too surly to use his likewise decent Persuasion for charm.

That just doesn't wash ... at least, not for the commonly accepted definition of "empathy".

Some of the people absolutely best at interacting with others, with the most charm and the highest ability to get people to do precisely what they want them to do — e.g. pathological narcissists and psychopaths — have by definition zero empathy.

And connecting to Medical — well, there won't be much interpersonal interaction with an unconscious or comatose person, something a medic can be expected to do with some regularity, and still be efficiently able to determine what's wrong with them, and what to do about it.
In fact, determining whether the person is just that — comatose or merely unconscious — is in itself a vitally important diagnostic task, but requires exactly zero ability from the medic to understand and share the patient's emotional experience, which is what "empathy" is.

Connecting a Medic skill to an Empathy stat having become a trope in RPG's doesn't by necessity make it a good idea.

But instead of trying to re-write the dictionary definition of "empathy", perhaps it would be better to consider calling the stat something else? "HUMINT"...?
[i]Before[/i] clicking that response button — [i]are you sure you actually [b]read[/b] it?[/i]

...[i]and[/i] checked if something more was posted on the subject [b]after[/b] it? ;)
 
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pansarskott
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Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Wed 09 Dec 2020, 11:54


Tank Main Gun: Skill Die + D6 No fire control system, D8 Ranging MG or optical range finder, D10 Laser rangefinder / analog fire control, D12 Advanced Digital Fire control.
There was different bonuses in V1/V2, example for M1 tanks:
V1: RF bonus +40
V2: Fire control +2

Other vehicles had lower bonus, or none at all
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Wed 09 Dec 2020, 13:17

I think that in some instances the Attribute component of a roll should be replaced by one representing the capabilities of the equipment. The latter probably contributes more to the outcome than natural agility or strength.

For example, firing an ATGW should be Skill Die + Equipment Die (1st Gen ATGW = D8, 2nd Gen ATGW= D10, 3rd gen ATGW = D12).
Tank Main Gun: Skill Die + D6 No fire control system, D8 Ranging MG or optical range finder, D10 Laser rangefinder / analog fire control, D12 Advanced Digital Fire control.

This provides, IMHO, a more accurate reflection of reality plus gives more design space without increasing the complexity of the game or breaking some fundamental conceit (rolling a set of two dice to determine success or failure).
I agree absolutely and I find it most obvious with fire-and-forget weapons, such as the FGM-148 Javelin of the era (although its precursor, the Dragon, would probably still be in use during the Twilight War). Weapons of the electronics age, and most certainly all guided weapons from the late 1960s onward, are more and more built to equally easy to use for every likely user. They will need skill, but not physical characteristics to use properly.

I would argue that we do not need another kind of die here. Fria Ligan already offers the - genuine excellent - mechanic of the Reliability Rating with its die. Obviously, this is meant to reflect physical reliability, but to me it seems this can easily also represent reliability in use. Most early guided weapons were quite finicky an unreliable with wires tearing, optics fogging or contacts needing the right amount of care, love and attention.

All of this is already encompassed in the Reliability Rating I thin. However, I argued in a different thread (viewtopic.php?f=127&t=7058&start=210#p53530) why I would like to see a Reliability Rating die to be included in every attack roll anyway. One could give guided weapons the feature that reliability rating can produce successes, however, but attributes do not. This would still leave room for attribute based mishaps: if you are clumsy clot, you are more likely to send your M47 Dragon missile to the ground, but being an agile master tumbler or concert pianist would not help a bit.
liber & infractus
 
paladin2019
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Wed 09 Dec 2020, 17:28

In this version of T2K, your pathological narcissists and psychopaths do have high EMP scores if they are able to effectively get others to do want they want. As stripped down as this game is, there aren't separate deception and intimidation skills. Those are covered by persuasion. Given that and regardless of how the Legion has described EMP (Charisma, amiability, and emotional stability), it doesn't have the normal definition of empathy. That's kind of the nature of game terms.

This said, if Recon is a Intelligence skill, Medical Aid certainly could be, too, but Survival and Tech are already fill the other two slots and neither are worth losing. In the end, it's a gamism that works.
 
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omnipus
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon 22 Jun 2020, 20:58

Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 06:39

Ursus, it's pretty intrinsic to the system that there is no such thing as a skill roll without its related attribute. You could argue for it, I guess, but it happens nowhere in this system as it stands -- or any other FL system, as it were. The assumption, which I think is fair enough, is that your skills must be based on whatever natural aptitude you had in the first place.

Not to say your idea is bad, but it's a pretty significant re-imagining of how things work. Also, if the idea is just to roll reliability... well, is a Javelin more reliable than an RPG-7? If not, then it also offers no intrinsic advantage as far as accuracy goes. What might be a better argument is that some very high-tech systems like the Javelin are more based on Intelligence than on Agility. (of course there's also the factor that it's about 50 pounds sitting on your shoulder... but then again that's a Strength problem... so we just run from problem to problem.)

As for empathy, I look at it as "understanding or interest in what makes people tick." It is a maybe a stretch to say that includes physically, too, but it's not an insurmountable one to me.
 
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aramis
Posts: 503
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Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Thu 10 Dec 2020, 20:30

On the subject of EMP(Medical), it is has become a common linkage in games since at least 2000 with D&D3e. That said, Empathy is the "interact with people" stat. Diagnosing a medical problem and assessing the treatment applied has a fundamental component involving this. Even House has a decent EMP, he is just too surly to use his likewise decent Persuasion for charm.

That just doesn't wash ... at least, not for the commonly accepted definition of "empathy".
[snip]
Connecting a Medic skill to an Empathy stat having become a trope in RPG's doesn't by necessity make it a good idea.

But instead of trying to re-write the dictionary definition of "empathy", perhaps it would be better to consider calling the stat something else? "HUMINT"...?
I think, personally, that a list of 12 skills is too few for this genre, and because of the fixation on 12 skills, and a fixation on equal numbers per attribute, many suboptimal choices have been made. For example, there is no skill which feels like it should cover the sciences. Medicine should be Int, not Emp.

One of those is making Emp the general interpersonal skill attribute. Another is making battlefield medicine look like an interpersonal ability, when it's more a perception one.
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