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Tomas
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Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Tue 01 Dec 2020, 10:32

As the Character Generation system stands I believe it is too granular (too little differentiation between levels, too few levels) and has too few skills to make for a game which will support long term campaign style play.

Yes, I know, there will eventually be a Base Building section in the GMs book, but, based on the way this is handled in MYZ and Forbidden Lands I am not confident that it will be either a) realistic or b) very detailed ... and am doubtful that it will support long term campaigning either.

As it stands it seems that the only style of play that will be supported, at least out of the box, will be one shot almost purely combat oriented adventures ('if all you have is a hammer, then you treat every problem as if it is a nail') or very short term campaigns that will also be almost entirely military combat oriented.

For all their faults (and there were many), TW:2000 V2 and V2.2 at least supported long term character growth, a diversity of military and civilian character types, and long term campaigns.

Perhaps I am wrong, but with the rules as written I am not particularly hopeful.

Phil McGregor
========
Author: Space Opera (FGU); Rigger Black Book #1 (FASA); Orbis Mundi 2, The Marketplace, Ithura & Porthaven, Fantasy Europe (PGD); Road to Armageddon & Supplements, Displaced, Audace ad Gloriam, Farm, Forge & Steam (PGD).
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but for the record, our design philosophy is simply not, in any our games, that "more granular = supports long term character growth". I know that many older games, previous editions of Twilight: 2000 included, had much more granular rules (more skills, more granular skill levels) than Free League games do, but we feel that character growth can be achieved in so many other ways than incremental skill level increases. In this game, characters can evolve by learning new specialties, gaining new moral codes, finding new big dreams, building their base, etc.
Fria Ligan
 
aspqrz
Posts: 47
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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Tue 01 Dec 2020, 10:52

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but for the record, our design philosophy is simply not, in any our games, that "more granular = supports long term character growth". I know that many older games, previous editions of Twilight: 2000 included, had much more granular rules (more skills, more granular skill levels) than Free League games do, but we feel that character growth can be achieved in so many other ways than incremental skill level increases. In this game, characters can evolve by learning new specialties, gaining new moral codes, finding new big dreams, building their base, etc.

Yes, I understand that. I just don't feel that it gels with the way the original game was aligned. I suspect that a chunk (of indeterminate size) of the backers backed the Kickstarter because they hoped that it would provide a more GDW-influenced experience and may, as I am, be disappointed with the way things seem to be going.

Oh well, in backing Kickstarters there is always a risk of disappointment.

Phil McGregor
========
Author: Space Opera (FGU); Rigger Black Book #1 (FASA); Orbis Mundi 2, The Marketplace, Ithura & Porthaven, Fantasy Europe (PGD); Road to Armageddon & Supplements, Displaced, Audace ad Gloriam, Farm, Forge & Steam (PGD).
 
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pansarskott
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Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Tue 01 Dec 2020, 12:20

As the Character Generation system stands I believe it is too granular (too little differentiation between levels, too few levels) and has too few skills to make for a game which will support long term campaign style play.
Isn't the word coarse, not granular?

Granular, many steps, small change between steps (e.g. percentage 0-100%)
Coarse, few steps, large change between steps (e.g. attributes A-D)
 
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Vader
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Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Tue 01 Dec 2020, 12:48

I think Phil probably meant "not granular enough".

But I hope to see more of how those character evolution mechanisms work. In some of the earlier YZE games, this has seemed quite random ... "pick a code from a list ... now you lost it due to random dice rolls ... pick a new one from the list" ... instead of being connected to a greater character arc.

And also to note: "base building" is not "character development".

It's a possible mechanic to build campaign structure, sure, but to me, it simply is not "character evolution" in any way, form, or fashion.
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aspqrz
Posts: 47
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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Tue 01 Dec 2020, 16:05

Don't get me wrong, I have MYZ, Mechatron and Elysium as well as Forbidden Lands and all of the supplements for it short of the latest (Mellified Mage - probably a 'surprise' Xmas pressie) and I am generally happy with most of the things they do and the way they do it ...

But they are not realistic in any way, shape or form ... not even close to it ... and it doesn't matter because they are fun games because no one has anything invested in them and, sometimes, games that are unrealistic but fun can be, well, fun.

Twilight: 2000, however, is, IMO, different ... and I suspect, as I suggested, that a significant chunk (of unknown size) of people backed the Kickstarter expecting (or hoping for) a more realistic approach to things and a character generation system (and game system, of course) that would be in the same tradition of V1, V2, V2.2 and V3 ... where there were real paths for an ongoing non-military campaign and for running non-military scenarios without all sorts of contortions made necessary because there aren't enough skills to allow it or, if you twist the specialties rule, not enough chances to gain those skills in such a way as to represent a realistic character.

It's just not crunchy *enough* ... that's my opinion and its worth exactly what was paid for it ;-)

There are probably some ways in which the system as is can be improved without too much work, but my experience (having backed over 300 RPG related Kickstarters) doesn't make me feel particularly optimistic that they will be sought out and considered ... designers more often than not have tunnel vision and are too invested in the way things are to consider that they may not be making the best design choices possible ... or may be making design choices that may not be conducive to selling a series of follow on products (and, yes, I could easily be dead certain 100% wrong!).

On the other hand, I'm sure the designers of Twilight 2013 thought they had a winner too ...

Phil McGregor
========
Author: Space Opera (FGU); Rigger Black Book #1 (FASA); Orbis Mundi 2, The Marketplace, Ithura & Porthaven, Fantasy Europe (PGD); Road to Armageddon & Supplements, Displaced, Audace ad Gloriam, Farm, Forge & Steam (PGD).
 
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Vader
Posts: 617
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Location: The Frozen North

Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Tue 01 Dec 2020, 17:04

Don't get me wrong, I have MYZ, Mechatron and Elysium as well as Forbidden Lands and all of the supplements for it short of the latest (Mellified Mage - probably a 'surprise' Xmas pressie) and I am generally happy with most of the things they do and the way they do it ...

But they are not realistic in any way, shape or form ... not even close to it ... and it doesn't matter because they are fun games because no one has anything invested in them and, sometimes, games that are unrealistic but fun can be, well, fun.

Twilight: 2000, however, is, IMO, different ... and I suspect, as I suggested, that a significant chunk (of unknown size) of people backed the Kickstarter expecting (or hoping for) a more realistic approach to things and a character generation system (and game system, of course) that would be in the same tradition of V1, V2, V2.2 and V3 ... where there were real paths for an ongoing non-military campaign and for running non-military scenarios without all sorts of contortions made necessary because there aren't enough skills to allow it or, if you twist the specialties rule, not enough chances to gain those skills in such a way as to represent a realistic character.

It's just not crunchy *enough* ... that's my opinion and its worth exactly what was paid for it ;-)

There are probably some ways in which the system as is can be improved without too much work, but my experience (having backed over 300 RPG related Kickstarters) doesn't make me feel particularly optimistic that they will be sought out and considered ... designers more often than not have tunnel vision and are too invested in the way things are to consider that they may not be making the best design choices possible ... or may be making design choices that may not be conducive to selling a series of follow on products (and, yes, I could easily be dead certain 100% wrong!).

On the other hand, I'm sure the designers of Twilight 2013 thought they had a winner too ...

Phil McGregor
========
Author: Space Opera (FGU); Rigger Black Book #1 (FASA); Orbis Mundi 2, The Marketplace, Ithura & Porthaven, Fantasy Europe (PGD); Road to Armageddon & Supplements, Displaced, Audace ad Gloriam, Farm, Forge & Steam (PGD).

QFT.

And while on the subject of pertinent of TLA's; NIH is a powerful driving force behind many less than optimal development processes.
[i]Before[/i] clicking that response button — [i]are you sure you actually [b]read[/b] it?[/i]

...[i]and[/i] checked if something more was posted on the subject [b]after[/b] it? ;)
 
swedishtrex
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri 27 Nov 2020, 12:52

Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Tue 01 Dec 2020, 18:23

While i would not mind having more specialities and will end upp making new ones myself along the lines we already have done for MUA, forgotten lands and especially coriolis (which was especially depraved of it) i do not want to see it tipped over to a Shadowrun type problem with 2903092032390 skills/talents so specific it's basicly pointless do do any fun characters.

Is there room to grow ? absolute, especially in the second character creation system.
 
Wacsmurf
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 03:07

Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 04:08

I can’t seem to figure out how to roll up a character. I see the pregenerated ones but I want to do one from scratch and I don’t see how that is possible from the content available.
 
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pansarskott
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Joined: Mon 24 Aug 2020, 19:29

Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 07:13

CHARACTER GENERATION: LIFE PATHS on page numbered 31 (page 32 in pdf viewer)
 
Wacsmurf
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 03:07

Re: [ALPHA] Character generation

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 12:55

Ah,
Thanks. I was printing these up in batches and that ended up elsewhere on the wrong side of a page do I went back and reprinted almost all of Chapter 3.
Never do this when you are too tired.
Many thanks
ddc
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