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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Posted: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 08:52
by HorusZA
Your last sentence mentions "hitting zero hitpoints", which reminded me of a question I had:
The rules say "When you have suffered damage equal to or in excess of your hit capacity, you become incapacitated."
I'm assuming that means you can accumulate more damage than you hit capacity which would, in turn, mean that recovery will take longer. Or do you stop accumulating damage once you hit you max capacity?
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Yes, you can't go below zero hit points.
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Thank you for the clarification.
Doesn't that lead to an odd situation where I have one hit-point remaining and get hit by a (non-crit) MG burst for, say, 9 points of damage which would disable me with exactly the same consequences (a 5-second treatment by the combat medic to get me back on my feet) as a punch to the face?
By allowing hit points to go into negative, recovery would be much more difficult.

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Posted: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 10:38
by Tomas
We weren't discussing basic crits, but "Severe Injuries" (on page 71-72). It is strange that heavier weapons have a harder time (or impossible time!) creating severe injuries. I overlooked this on first read.
This is a fair point and something we'll have a look at. One comment I would make is that this will generally only affect the player characters, as crits are not rolled for minor NPCs anyway. For those, crit = kill.
For example, the Soviet PP-19 SMG has a damage value of 1 and an armor value of +2...so if the unlucky soldier equipped with the PP-19 gets into a fight with an armored foe, he delivers 1 point of damage... versus an armor rating of 3...
Right, so the example you have here is a shot from the weakest SMG in the game hitting an enemy in an armored hit location (most likely the torsto). Yes, under these conditions you will have a very hard time inflicting a critical injury, or even harming the target. The target can however, be supressed.

On a general note, I would rarely have random, minor NPCs wear armor (other than helmets), as this will slow combat down (that goes for pretty much all RPGs, by the way). This is also why the NPCs in the NPC list in chapter 2 of the Referee's Manual don't have body armor.

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Posted: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 11:09
by rennarda
I like the idea of ABCD rating for armour - penetrating it reduces the rating by 1 step, instead of lowering the armour value. Almost all armour seems to be just rating 1 anyway, so it's just a 1 hit wonder in the rules as written. This also makes it more consistent with weapons. I think if armour is going to drop so quickly the ratings should be higher to start with - helmets seem like they ought to be armour 2 at lest.

As for crit ratings - yes I don't understand why some weapons have a higher crit threshold than others, other than for game balance. Heavy weapons and explosives have a lower crit rating than their damage though, so any hit will be a severe critical automatically.

It would just be easier to say that each additional success beyond the first automatically inflicts a critical (additional critical meaning more d10s to roll, as per the severe injury rule). That would make armour less effective though - so you could say you need more successes than the armour rating to inflict a critical....

So that would be : damage = (base damage * (1 + ammo dice success)) + 1 per success
critical : number of d10s to roll on critical table = attack successes - 1 - armour

Certain weapons would have an asterisk * automatically grants x critical dice if any damage caused

Sorry to keep throwing ideas out - I'm sure the game design is pretty locked down at this point - but these are things I feel I will need to house rule as it stands.

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Posted: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 11:32
by Crone
Hi!
Just wanted to add that I think the ROF and ammo spent rules are nice for automatic fire but I think rules needs to be added when it comes to single fire like sniper/hunting rifles and revolvers and pistols.
Those are often bolt action or semi automatic and the ammo dice pool from ROF just doesnt make sense. Even an assault rifle have the possibility to fire just one round and should there for be able to do so.

This is a game where your resources are so valueable you just do throw away ammo like that in every combat situation. The players need to have a choice to fire just one round.

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Posted: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 14:36
by Canis
I also agree, the Ammo usage & ROF rules need some work.

I find it hard to accept a combat veteran Special Forces Operator could randomly & recklessly empty a magazine, just the same as a child who has picked up an Automatic weapon for the 1st time ever in their life.

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Posted: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 14:41
by DoktorD
I like the idea of ABCD rating for armour - penetrating it reduces the rating by 1 step, instead of lowering the armour value. Almost all armour seems to be just rating 1 anyway, so it's just a 1 hit wonder in the rules as written. This also makes it more consistent with weapons. I think if armour is going to drop so quickly the ratings should be higher to start with - helmets seem like they ought to be armour 2 at lest.

As for crit ratings - yes I don't understand why some weapons have a higher crit threshold than others, other than for game balance. Heavy weapons and explosives have a lower crit rating than their damage though, so any hit will be a severe critical automatically.

It would just be easier to say that each additional success beyond the first automatically inflicts a critical (additional critical meaning more d10s to roll, as per the severe injury rule). That would make armour less effective though - so you could say you need more successes than the armour rating to inflict a critical....

So that would be : damage = (base damage * (1 + ammo dice success)) + 1 per success
critical : number of d10s to roll on critical table = attack successes - 1 - armour

Certain weapons would have an asterisk * automatically grants x critical dice if any damage caused

Sorry to keep throwing ideas out - I'm sure the game design is pretty locked down at this point - but these are things I feel I will need to house rule as it stands.
Crit ratings - It seems like crit ratings are based on several factors. 1. Game balance, as you suggest :) 2. Overall lethality, like the 9x18 (like in a PM pistol) is weaker than a 9x19 (like an M9) and therefor less likely to cause critical damage. And the RPG7V with Damage 7 Crit 2 is very likely to cause massively severe crits if you happen to hit an unarmored target. 3. Weapon "accuracy". Sniper rifles for instance, like the M40A3 uses the same 7.62x51 as the M60 GPMG but has a lower Crit value to reflect that it's easier to land a shot in a vital place on the target. This likely also is a balance issue to make weapons that are "high tier" but does not have a high rate of fire able to reliably take out targets.

An important factor in getting critical hits is not only armor but cover. Even quite light cover (like woods) give +2 armor so even if you get several successes on an attack but hit a body part thats behind cover you are unlikely to get a critical effect.

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Posted: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 14:44
by Fenhorn
I can agree that a sniper shooting someone using aimed fire with his scoped rifle should be able to shoot one bullet only. Other types of fire, the ammo dice works. If you want to save bullets you use ROF 1 (short controlled burst), not full auto and ROF 1 is on the average 3-4 bullets.

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Posted: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 14:47
by DoktorD
I also agree, the Ammo usage & ROF rules need some work.

I find it hard to accept a combat veteran Special Forces Operator could randomly & recklessly empty a magazine, just the same as a child who has picked up an Automatic weapon for the 1st time ever in their life.
I mean, they could if they wanted to, right? :)

I fully agree that the ROF thing needs some love, mostly for weapons that have ROF 1 and low capacity, but the veteran is less likely to just throw all available ammo dice at a target they are unlikely to hit (unless they are firing at an area target or suppressing). I mean, the ROF of a weapon is the maximum practical rate you can fire the weapon at. You can always chose to roll just one ammo dice and pop a few single shots off instead of trying to empty your mag as fast as possible at all times... :D

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Posted: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 14:58
by welsh
Those are often bolt action or semi automatic and the ammo dice pool from ROF just doesnt make sense. Even an assault rifle have the possibility to fire just one round and should there for be able to do so.
This is a ten-second combat round.

In ten seconds it's not that challenging to fire multiple rounds from a bolt-action rifle. Remember also that this is *combat* and your primary consideration ought to be keeping yourself alive by killing the enemy. If you miss on the first shot you are not going to wait 10 seconds and hope you get another. Saving a round for the next opportunity is a false economy when people are trying to kill you.

The assumption built into the to-hit roll is that you will take n shots to hit, and that's what the ammo die is for. For reasons I outlined above, the option to take a single shot ought to be accompanied by a -1 to hit modifier.

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Posted: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 15:08
by welsh
I find it hard to accept a combat veteran Special Forces Operator could randomly & recklessly empty a magazine, just the same as a child who has picked up an Automatic weapon for the 1st time ever in their life.
You realize that the option to throw just one ammo die exists, right?

This would be the default choice not just for your veteran SF operator but for any graduate of basic training who remembered what he was taught. So that's typically 3 - 4 rounds in 10 seconds, which is quite a moderate rate of fire.