Crone
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 15:58

Those are often bolt action or semi automatic and the ammo dice pool from ROF just doesnt make sense. Even an assault rifle have the possibility to fire just one round and should there for be able to do so.
This is a ten-second combat round.

In ten seconds it's not that challenging to fire multiple rounds from a bolt-action rifle. Remember also that this is *combat* and your primary consideration ought to be keeping yourself alive by killing the enemy. If you miss on the first shot you are not going to wait 10 seconds and hope you get another. Saving a round for the next opportunity is a false economy when people are trying to kill you.

The assumption built into the to-hit roll is that you will take n shots to hit, and that's what the ammo die is for. For reasons I outlined above, the option to take a single shot ought to be accompanied by a -1 to hit modifier.
I never said it was impossible to do so but why would you? If you have a bolt action sniper rifle, have high ground, good cover and the enemy dont know your position I, as a sniper, would never go full ape-shit spraying with my sniper rifle just because I can. One shot, one kill, nice and clean. If I start spraying and praying as a sniper with a bolt action rifle Im not doing what I was trained to do.
Right now there are no rules to cover this kind of combat.
Futher, it is not a false economy - if Im out of ammo, i cant shoot back, I need to make every bullet count and as a sniper that is making every shot count as I said. One shot one kill.
As a sniper I will only take a shot if Im sure I will hit, not "hum i probably need 5 bullets here and hopefully I'll hit with at least one... here goes nothing", giving my position away and an empty clip.
It is more likely that you take the 10 secs and aim and hit with one shot than spending 5 and hope one will.

Just to be clear, Im not against the rules of ROF and ammo spend when it comes to heavy weapon, assault rifle and sub machineguns. I like the idea but the rules needs to cover the possibility for characters to choose to fire single rounds.
 
welsh
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 16:06

You need to stop and consider what a long time ten seconds is. Three or four shots in ten seconds is not spray and pray.
 
Crone
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 16:15

But it isnt about the time frame of 10 secs at all. It is about lack of rules covering the choice of taking one shot.
As it is now I cant just shoot one bullet. I could wait for 30 mins to take that shot but still I need to spend 2 - 5 bullets as a minimum
 
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Vader
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 16:50

Indeed. There really needs to be a rule for just firing off one shot — even with weapons capable of emptying three full mags in a single round.


It would be one thing if the design intent of the system were to always keep firing until effect is achieved, however many rounds it takes.

That "effect" may be that the target is hit, or if he manages to duck first, that the target is suppressed — but the assumption is that you will always keep pulling the trigger and not stop until either of these two things happens.

But in that case, the effect should always be automatic; the questions the dice need to answer are (a) which effect — hit or suppression — (b) how many rounds needed to be spent to achieve it, and (b) if you did hit, how many bullets actually struck the target.

Not achieving any effect at all — hit nor suppression — ought then to be categorised as a mishap, always resulting in that you spend the maximum number of rounds of your chosen Ammo Dice.


And somehow, I don't quite see that that can be the intention of the system — not least because, while there are situations where such a system would be applicable, they aren't universal.
Plus, there are tactical situations when I will only choose to fire one shot, never mind how much time I'd have to fire more. And the system really ought to allow for that.
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welsh
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 17:01

As it is now I cant just shoot one bullet. I could wait for 30 mins to take that shot but still I need to spend 2 - 5 bullets as a minimum
In fact, 1 to 6 rounds.

A practical solution to the single shot problem has already been suggested: allow a single shot, with a -1 modifier to reflect your decision not to take a followup shot if you miss. You would still potentially roll one ammo die against a mishap.
 
DoktorD
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 17:09

I'm all for the option to shoot less than one ammo die of shots. It does however introduce some potential balancing issues (which are arguably there already). If a single shot is as effective as an ammo die or more worth of shots ammo economy becomes problematic.
 
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Vader
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 17:12

But really ... what is the difference, mechanically speaking, between firing a single round from a firearm and using a crossbow, or RPG, or any other intrinsically single-shot weapon?

Shouldn't the same mechanic just apply straight off?
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DoktorD
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 17:23

But really ... what is the difference, mechanically speaking, between firing a single round from a firearm and using a crossbow, or RPG, or any other intrinsically single-shot weapon?

Shouldn't the same mechanic just apply straight off?
I see your point. I guess the unsatisfying answer is: Game balance. Crossbows and RPGs are already accounted for balance wise. Crossbows are low capacity and time consuming to reload. RPGs are low capacity and expensive to supply. From a mechanical point of view for ammo to be important it would then have to be either very expensive or scarce. Which would sort of invalidate any high rate of fire weapon. Play time would be another potential problem, if you normally fire one shot for every attack you would have to go through 30 combat game rounds with a person attacking every single round to even empty one magazine with an assault rifle. You might go the entire campaign without reloading your LMG even once :D
 
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Vader
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 17:40

I see your point. I guess the unsatisfying answer is: Game balance. Crossbows and RPGs are already accounted for balance wise. Crossbows are low capacity and time consuming to reload. RPGs are low capacity and expensive to supply. From a mechanical point of view for ammo to be important it would then have to be either very expensive or scarce. Which would sort of invalidate any high rate of fire weapon. Play time would be another potential problem, if you normally fire one shot for every attack you would have to go through 30 combat game rounds with a person attacking every single round to even empty one magazine with an assault rifle. You might go the entire campaign without reloading your LMG even once :D

Which sort of brings back the point that increased volume of fire should somehow increase hit probability. Then, a single shot with any weapon is just a single shot.

So ... what would happen if two successes on the Ammo Dice counted as a success to the To Hit dice ... the more Ammo Dice you add, the greater the probability of scoring a pair, and thus succeed even if your To Hit dice don't?

It would tweak the overall hit probability up a bit, but not catastrophically so, I suspect...
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DoktorD
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 17:53

Which sort of brings back the point that increased volume of fire should somehow increase hit probability. Then, a single shot with any weapon is just a single shot.

So ... what would happen if two successes on the Ammo Dice counted as a success to the To Hit dice ... the more Ammo Dice you add, the greater the probability of scoring a pair, and thus succeed even if your To Hit dice don't?

It would tweak the overall hit probability up a bit, but not catastrophically so, I suspect...
Intriguing! :) I like it, but i guess the odds of ever scoring two successes on ammo dice is quite low even if you use a very high ROF weapon. It also doesn't really make the option of using one ammo die particularly attractive as opposed to just firing a single shot.

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