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Viperion_NZ
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 12 Mar 2021, 03:51

I think Omnipus' point is that "lack a skill level" means "don't have the skill on your character sheet" not "the skill has been reduced to F through penalties" which, grammatically speaking, is a valid way to interpret that sentence.

But the intention is pretty clear
 
paladin2019
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 12 Mar 2021, 03:57

But the skill hasn't been reduced to F, penalties have just reduced the die to [null]. You are still skilled.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 12 Mar 2021, 04:09

Skill Levels are ranked A, B, C, D and no skill level (also called "F").

So a mobility skill roll with Agility B (d10) and Mobility D (d6) will get a mishap if you roll a 1 on both dice. If you modify this skill roll by -1, then the D is reduced to no skill level (or "F" if you will) and you will only roll a d10 for the skill roll and you will get a mishap if that die show a 1.

edit: I could be very wrong here. You can interpret this in both ways, but the only logical way (according to me at least) is to interpret is the way this way.
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omnipus
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 12 Mar 2021, 04:24

Maybe. But that's not how it's written. And the intent is clearly to make trying things that you don't have the skill for more risky. (the quote from the weapons rules is explicit about that)

Agreed, though, that it leads to some wackiness. In the situation mentioned, where a skill has been modified to a single die, not only is a mishap impossible, but so is pushing the roll (which could lead to consequences). Therefore no consequence is actually (mechanically) possible, beyond that stemming from the narrative.
 
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Viperion_NZ
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 12 Mar 2021, 04:29

There's nothing in the Pushing section that says you can't push a roll you only have one die for, is that somewhere else?

(You can't push if you rolled a mishap, and you can't push passive rolls, and you can't re-roll a 1 when pushing, but if I have Agl B and no Mobility, I can push a Mobility roll if I fail and don't roll a 1)
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 12 Mar 2021, 04:32

There's nothing in the Pushing section that says you can't push a roll you only have one die for, is that somewhere else?

(You can't push if you rolled a mishap, and you can't push passive rolls, and you can't re-roll a 1 when pushing, but if I have Agl B and no Mobility, I can push a Mobility roll if I fail and don't roll a 1)
As you said, you can push any skill roll as long as the skill roll isn't a mishap (and yeah, you can't re-roll 1s).

edit: When it comes to mishap, I think people are over-thinking it. To have skill level D modified by -1 will result in -1 step so you now have no skill levels for this particular skill roll.
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omnipus
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 12 Mar 2021, 04:52

"Lacking a skill level" to me is 100% absolutely not "I have that skill but faced modifiers," which is what you seem to be saying, Fenhorn. If that was the intent, it should say something like "If you face a challenge that reduces your effective skill level to zero," which is quite clear. Possibly this is a translation issue?

Of course even that suggestion above gets further complicated by how the dice math works (variable which one gets reduced first, etc) -- that could of course be super easily simplified by simply saying "the skill die always gets reduced first."

And now all of that makes mishaps super likely with firearms, so you'd need an edge case to eliminate that problem. So, I'm very confident in my reading of the rules that it wasn't intended that way even to begin with.

As for the pushing issue, I meant specifically in a situation where you rolled a mishap result on only one die. It can't cause a mishap and it can't be re-rolled.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 12 Mar 2021, 04:57

When the beta comes out, we have to remember to report this (unless they already cleared this up in the beta of course).
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
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Viperion_NZ
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 12 Mar 2021, 04:58

You have to remember that this is not a War sim, this is a post-apocalyptic game. Guns breaking down is in combat, I believe, 100% intentional on the part of the designers.

And also, a mishap in combat isn't "your gun breaks" (unless it was already D-reliability, or you fail the reliability check), so in practice a mishap in combat can be ignored (but dealt with later) anyway.

I am equally confident that the rules *are* intended the way Fenhorn and I are reading them. Purely because of the out-of-combat mishaps that should happen if you happen to have enough modifiers to reduce your skill (or attribute) die to [null]
 
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omnipus
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 12 Mar 2021, 05:16

Ah, well, all of this also points clearly to another reason why ammo dice are clearly never intended to be optional under any circumstances: doing so makes you potentially immune to weapon mishaps, or nearly so, which is also clearly not the design intent.

A mishap in combat absolutely cannot be ignored (I don't know why you would ignore mishaps under any circumstances?) because it can very easily lead to a jam, which in turn can lead to a broken weapon! At the very least, it has significant potential to disrupt the action economy, which is everything when it comes to winning fights. Read the combat account I posted in this thread a few pages back if you don't believe me.

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