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Vader
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 11 Dec 2020, 23:28

"Original M16's were notoriously unreliable once fouled"
No, the powder specification was changed from the approved version without telling the designers so the appropriate modifications could be made.

Actually, the statement is correct. With the out-of-spec powder, the original M16's were unreliable. The issue was rectified in the M16A1, where pertinent changes were made, but it does not detract from the fact. Or the deaths it caused.

The other fact of note here is that the high-pressure direct impingement mechanism of the M16 is intrinsically more sensitive to clogging than the low-pressure long-stroke piston mechanism of the AKM or FNC, or the delayed blowback of e.g. the G3 and others.

Feed it with industrially manufactured powder, and it's no problem — but feed it with cartridges loaded with a powder prone to deposit slag and residue, and it'll be a very different matter. And in this setting, lacking factory powder, people may start concocting their own ... of dubious quality. And here's my point: powder that could keep e.g. the Swedish a Ak 4 or Ak 5 firing pretty much indefinitely, could clog up the M16 variants in the first firefight. Nothing that couldn't be cleaned of course, but it would render the weapon pretty inoperable until it was cleaned.
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 11 Dec 2020, 23:40

The former. In fact, as currently written, ammo dice hits are completely independent of hits on the base dice and there's no way to use them as additional successes. This particular point has been a lot of the debate in here.

So say you rolled an attack with [success, success, success] and [ammo success, ammo success, mishap, mishap] with an M16A2. Your base attack would hit for 4 damage (base damage, +2 for the two extra base successes) which would cause a crit roll. You would also get two additional hits from the ammo dice of 2 damage each. And you would have a mishap.

Whereas in the variation to allow the first two ammo hits to substitute for a Base Die hit if all Base Dice miss that has been debated, the above would still be true; nothing would change.

However, if you instead rolled [base miss, base miss] and [ammo hit, ammo hit, ammo mishap, ammo mishap], you'd just score a single hit for base damage. And you would have a mishap.
Rolling [base miss, base miss] and [ammo hit, ammo hit, ammo hit, ammo miss] would score you one hit for base damage for the first two ammo dice hits, and then a second hit for base damage for the third.
No chance for bonus damage or crit.


Still think that would work, actually.
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welsh
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 11 Dec 2020, 23:59

Except that you'd throw suppression out the window.
 
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Vader
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 00:05

Except that you'd throw suppression out the window.

You point out something important. How come that as soon as fire hits a target — any target — it suddenly doesn't cause suppression?

I have a bit of a problem with that.

I'd actually be inclined to consider allowing the [ammo success] results to always cause suppression, whether the Base Dice show a hit or not...

Which would mean that a result where all Base Dice miss, and only one Ammo Die shows a hit, is the only result that would only cause suppression and nothing else.
Last edited by Vader on Sat 12 Dec 2020, 00:11, edited 1 time in total.
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welsh
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 00:10

You point out something important. How come that as soon as automatic fire hits a target — any target — it suddenly doesn't cause suppression?
At this point I think you need to read the rules again.

A hit causes suppression regardless of ammo dice. Ammo dice can cause suppression in the absence of a hit.

By using ammo dice to cause a hit when base dice miss, you throw away the latter effect.
 
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 00:12

Except that you'd throw suppression out the window.

You point out something important. How come that as soon as fire hits a target — any target — it suddenly doesn't cause suppression?

I have a bit of a problem with that.

I'd actually be inclined to consider allowing the [ammo success] results to always cause suppression, whether the Base Dice show a hit or not...
Suppression is caused if you hit an enemy or if one or more ammo dice in a failed attack hits.

edit: Ninj'd by welsh.
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Ser Stevos
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 00:14

If I understand this correctly...

A soldier fires his M16A2 at the enemy. He grabs two base dice and decides to use all 3 ammo dice. He rolls [base hit, base hit] and [ammo hit, ammo hit, ammo miss]; the total damage would be 3+1 for the "base dice" and 2+2 for the "ammo dice." The base dice successes cause a crit but the ammo dice would not, however, they'd be doing 2+2 damage on different or same parts of the target. Ignoring the critical chart, that would be 8 damage total regardless on the target, dropping them instantly.

Now if that's all true and please correct me because now I feel less inclined that I understand ammo dice rules but perhaps it makes sense why a "mishap" happens on ammo dice if a successful ammo dice "hit" causes the "full weapon damage" (in this case of the m16a2, it's 2 damage each hit).
 
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Vader
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 00:14

You point out something important. How come that as soon as automatic fire hits a target — any target — it suddenly doesn't cause suppression?
At this point I think you need to read the rules again.

A hit causes suppression regardless of ammo dice. Ammo dice can cause suppression in the absence of a hit.

By using ammo dice to cause a hit when base dice miss, you throw away the latter effect.

Not quite ... a result where all Base Dice miss, and only one Ammo Die shows a hit, is the only result that would only cause suppression and nothing else.

And yes, you are right — I'd got stuck on the "one or more ammo dice in a failed attack against you...", and managed to miss the "if you are hit by enemy fire, or..."
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omnipus
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 00:45

If I understand this correctly...

A soldier fires his M16A2 at the enemy. He grabs two base dice and decides to use all 3 ammo dice. He rolls [base hit, base hit] and [ammo hit, ammo hit, ammo miss]; the total damage would be 3+1 for the "base dice" and 2+2 for the "ammo dice." The base dice successes cause a crit but the ammo dice would not, however, they'd be doing 2+2 damage on different or same parts of the target. Ignoring the critical chart, that would be 8 damage total regardless on the target, dropping them instantly.

Now if that's all true and please correct me because now I feel less inclined that I understand ammo dice rules but perhaps it makes sense why a "mishap" happens on ammo dice if a successful ammo dice "hit" causes the "full weapon damage" (in this case of the m16a2, it's 2 damage each hit).
Aaaaalmost. Base damage for the M16 is 2. So [base hit, base hit] would be base damage for the first success, +1 for the extra success. 2+1, not 3 +1. Either way, though, this hits the crit threshold.

The other potentially important thing is armor, which could both negate the crit, and potentially reduce damage on one or more of the ammo dice hits, depending on location. However, as currently written, any penetration of armor reduces its armor value by 1. All armor except plate armor (which is not common) has a rating of only 1, which means that any hit from any rifle and most other weapons in the game renders it broken after a single hit. This is IMO extreme and not how I will be playing. In the module I'm building I've already gone ahead and given armor a reliability rating so that different rules can be used. But that's how it works rn.
 
omnipus
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Sat 12 Dec 2020, 00:48

Oh and of course the same thing applies to cover, except that cover doesn't, I don't think, gets its armor value reduced. Also almost all cover has a rating of at least 2. Takeaway: this is a fire and maneuver game! Use cover if you want to live!

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