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pansarskott
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Thu 03 Dec 2020, 10:46

When it comes to suppression, that single shot a sniper fires once in a while is very powerful. Machine gun bursts is one thing, but it lacks that feeling that the enemy is out to get me.
 
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omnipus
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Thu 03 Dec 2020, 11:17

That's sorta why, god help me, I almost think another stat block for "suppression" (spookiness) might be called for. Although maybe it's not necessary; after all, we already know caliber and that's basically all we're talking about here.

Aldaron, the reasons why that's unbalancing, as I see them: (1) you get perfect ammo control, for no penalty. (2) your risk of mishap goes way way down. Maybe (2) is as it should be, but (1) is very unfair, and if not balanced out, would probably be the only action people would choose aside from occasionally going full ROF.
 
aspqrz
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Thu 03 Dec 2020, 15:06

When it comes to suppression, that single shot a sniper fires once in a while is very powerful. Machine gun bursts is one thing, but it lacks that feeling that the enemy is out to get me.

There was an incident at Anzio? Salerno" one of the two when a whole Division (?) went to ground because of random fire ... and took a heck of a long time to get moving again.

Suppression can work really really well!

Phil McGregor
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Morticanis
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 04 Dec 2020, 03:57

I think that a soldier with an "A/B" Agility, and "A/B" Ranged Combat skill and a weapon reliability rating of "A/B" should have the reasonable ability to take a single shot at a single target without having to possible expend as many as six rounds to do so...

Many people have brought up the fact that a turn/round is 5-10 seconds...but everyone has left out the "Aim" component of their argument.

Only Telescopic Sights get the "Sniper aim"...which is a bit unfair.

And the sniper aim breaks the "Aim is a fast action, shooting is a slow action, and you can't aim over 2 turns" model...

So...why would "Mr Telescopic" sight spend 5-10 seconds carefully lining up his shot...then unleash a torrent of barely controlled bullets in the vain hopes of scoring a second hit?

He wouldn't.

1: I think a pure "1 shot" mode should be allowed for coordinated shots ("Ok, guys. On 3 we each shoot one of the guards") and for actual sniping or hunting shots taken. ESPECIALLY if the weapon has a 1 RoF rating to begin with...

2: I think a telescopic sight should alter your range penalties,

3: I think ANYONE should be able to slow aim for a +2 to hit. Regardless of attachments.

M.
 
welsh
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 04 Dec 2020, 04:10

Many people have brought up the fact that a turn/round is 5-10 seconds...but everyone has left out the "Aim" component of their argument.
This doesn't deal with the fundamental problem, which is that allowing players to opt for a single shot imbalances things by allowing them to achieve greater efficiency in use of ammunition than is inherent in the design of the system. This leads to a perverse result: players using single shots to achieve the same rate of hits with a third (on average, over time) of the ammunition.

Give people a to-hit penalty to compensate for that, and the desire to conserve ammunition will quickly be replaced by a desire to keep the character alive.

I've never heard anyone complain that a "shot" from an M16 in 1E is 3 rounds. You're never allowed to take fewer. What people really object to here, I think, is the element of randomness.
 
Morticanis
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 04 Dec 2020, 04:57

Many people have brought up the fact that a turn/round is 5-10 seconds...but everyone has left out the "Aim" component of their argument.
This doesn't deal with the fundamental problem, which is that allowing players to opt for a single shot imbalances things by allowing them to achieve greater efficiency in use of ammunition than is inherent in the design of the system. This leads to a perverse result: players using single shots to achieve the same rate of hits with a third (on average, over time) of the ammunition.

Give people a to-hit penalty to compensate for that, and the desire to conserve ammunition will quickly be replaced by a desire to keep the character alive.

I've never heard anyone complain that a "shot" from an M16 in 1E is 3 rounds. You're never allowed to take fewer. What people really object to here, I think, is the element of randomness.
No one complained because that wasn't a thing...1E allowed any number of shots - from page 21 of the Play Manual:
"A weapon may fire any number of shots in a round from zero up to its full ROF. (A shot is usually a burst of three bullets or rounds, although for some weapons it is only one round. Everything in these rules is described in terms of shots, not bullets or rounds.)
The M16 in 1E had a RoF of 4. You could fire 1 bullet or 4 bullets per round...at your discretion.

M
 
welsh
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 04 Dec 2020, 05:51

The M16 in 1E had a RoF of 4. You could fire 1 bullet or 4 bullets per round...at your discretion.
The M16 had a ROF of 4 "shots." Each "shot" was actually 3 rounds, and the magazine capacity was correspondingly reduced to 10 instead of 30. There was no option to fire just one round from that weapon, or from many others. See: "a shot is usually a burst of 3 rounds." Neither is this related to the 3-round burst setting on the M16A2; you get the same thing with e.g. the Sterling SMG, which had no 3-round burst setting. The authors decided that on average you would squeeze out a 3-round burst and made the chart accordingly.

In the ammo dice model, you have a mag capacity of 30 and you throw an ammo die, which on average equates to bursts of 3 - 4 rounds. It's more or less the same thing, but with an element of randomness that reflects the idea that you are throwing dice not only to hit but also to determine how many rounds it took you to get the result.
 
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 04 Dec 2020, 07:31

So...why would "Mr Telescopic" sight spend 5-10 seconds carefully lining up his shot...then unleash a torrent of barely controlled bullets in the vain hopes of scoring a second hit?

He wouldn't.
Every sniper I've known (4 USAR, 1 USMC, 1 Legion Etrangier) is going to wait minutes if it gets him the assured incapacity shot. Snipers are patient. The goal is 1 shot=1 kill.

On the battlefield instead of on the ambush, sure they're going to take the aim, if they need it to have a high chance of hit.
Note that since all mods apply before the cap of AA and floor of DD if skilled and DF if not. So even an AA sniper is going to want it to remove the range penalty at times. Guys at extreme range, the sniper goes from AA to AB, while the yahoos go from CC down to DD. Sniper is 80% vs bad guys 30%. And that's without pushing. Pushing is even less bad for you than in Alien... it only hurts when you fail on the retry.
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Vader
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 04 Dec 2020, 10:18

The M16 in 1E had a RoF of 4. You could fire 1 bullet or 4 bullets per round...at your discretion.
The M16 had a ROF of 4 "shots." Each "shot" was actually 3 rounds, and the magazine capacity was correspondingly reduced to 10 instead of 30.

Wasn't the "3-round burst shots" 2e? Or am I missing my recollection...
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Crone
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Fri 04 Dec 2020, 10:36

In 2E the ROF was the number of bullets in a burst but i cant remeber if it was also the number of bursts you could do.
You could always choose to just fire one round or a burst.

I will probably house rule the ammo dice something like this:

The ammo dice will determine the number of bullets that hit the target - more bullets hit - positive effects like more damage and if you roll a "6" add a target.
This will let the players to have control over how many rounds they are using. ROF - like in E2 - ROF being the number of bullets in a burst.
Also this will make bursts more attractive due to possitive effects (no negative effects needed for single shots)

3-round burst - 3 bullets fired - use one ammo die
5-round burst - 5 bullets fired - use two ammo dice
10-round burst - 10 bullets fired - use three ammo dice

You can make up to 3 bursts per round.

Havent really thought of how rules for semi automatic and bolt action will be

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