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aspqrz
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon 07 Sep 2020, 12:17
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Sat 28 Nov 2020, 21:58

I can agree that weapon reliability decreases a little to fast (I have not tested the system so I don't actually know how this plays out). Regarding CUF, I think it already plays such a big part in the game and if you are an experienced shooter you already benefit from that by using SCB (use ROF 1 for example) when shooting.

edit: I actually thought there would be a single shot combat option in the game to be honest. Maybe we can have one added.

According to what I have read about weapon use in Afghanistan, the weapons the units went to war with were their training weapons ... already well used ... and the heavy use they were then obviously subjected to in theater has meant that the wear factor became a significant issue.

And weapons used by the Special Forces, for example their pistols, were the ones used in training, and they were so heavily used the slides were cracking. Similar problems with small-armss in Regular units.

In TW2000 the situation is that it is unlikely that ANY of the weapons characters have are 'factory fresh' ... they're well and truly past their use by date to one degree or another, so a high mishap chance is well and truly justified ... but I agree, it is far too high with the mechanics as they stand AND the whole concept of 'Fire Discipline' is made a mockery of by the Ammo Dice rule as it stands.

Now, my experience is from the mid 1970s Australian Army ... our SLRs (Australian made FN-FALs) were, nominally, capable of full automatic fire and had a selector switch with such a setting. HOWEVER it was disabled internally (the part[s) needed to allow autofire weren't there at all ... though you *could* insert a matchstick (!) and get a short autofire burst at least in training, with Blanks and a Blank Firing Attachment). All you could do was select between single shot and safe. Not like the M-16.

(There *was* an actual select fire version -- the HBAR [Heavy Barrel Automatic Rifle] which, as the name implies, had a heavier barrel to make it less prone to overheating effects *from* Autofire and could be distinguished visually from the SLR by the fact it had permanently attached Bipod legs and was issued with a 30 round magazine rather than the standard 20 round mag we grunts had to use. I saw exactly *one* of these in my two years in the CMF [Army Reserve] when some training NCOs from RMC Duntroon [Royal Military College in Canberra] came out to act as OPFOR during my University Regiment's annual camp ... normally the army used GPMGs [M60s] as support weapons)

Sure, you *could* do fairly rapid fire, but there was fire discipline and you were expected NOT to unless the situation warranted it, and the NCOs and Officers would enforce that.

I understand that the US Army may well have been different (our instructors had stories about the lack of fire discipline in the US troops they'd seen in action in Vietnam, but the US Armed Forces in Vietnam weren't, as I understand it, at the top of their game).

I dunno about the Austeyr (Australian made Steyr AUG), but I suspect the same applies ... no select fire in the ones issued to regular grunts.

I would expect that CUF should *heavily* modify the number of rounds actually fired. Either that or there should be a 'Fire Discipline' speciality available to allow characters to choose the actual number of rounds they fire somehow (perhaps allow as how weapons only fired as semi-auto fire one round per ammo die *unless* they roll a 6, in which case they fire two?).

But, yes, I agree there are serious conceptual problems with the mechanic as it currently exists as a comparison to real life.

Phil McGregor
========
Author: Space Opera (FGU); Rigger Black Book #1 (FASA); Orbis Mundi 2, The Marketplace, Ithura & Porthaven, Fantasy Europe (PGD); Road to Armageddon & Supplements, Displaced, Audace ad Gloriam, Farm, Forge & Steam (PGD).
 
aspqrz
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon 07 Sep 2020, 12:17
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Sat 28 Nov 2020, 22:00

HEAVY WEAPONS such as RPGs, grenade launchers, mortars and howitzers don’t use ammo dice. Instead, each attack consumes one round of ammo.

BOWS AND THROWN weapons also don’t give you ammo dice. Each time you shoot a bow, one arrow or thrown weapon is used.
Player's manual, p 61

Something like that could be applicable to single-shot weapons

Or a Bolt Action Rifle or a Semiauto Rifle with no Full Auto select fire option only using 1 round per Ammo Die ... maybe 2 if they roll a 6.

Phil McGregor
========
Author: Space Opera (FGU); Rigger Black Book #1 (FASA); Orbis Mundi 2, The Marketplace, Ithura & Porthaven, Fantasy Europe (PGD); Road to Armageddon & Supplements, Displaced, Audace ad Gloriam, Farm, Forge & Steam (PGD).
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Sat 28 Nov 2020, 22:09

The easiest way to implement a single shot action is to let any weapon that can do so (most of them) to just use the base dice (no ammo dice).
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
Mallear
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat 28 Nov 2020, 21:38

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Sat 28 Nov 2020, 22:20

A single shot option is definately needed.

Or atleast make the first (and possibly ony) ammo die an d3.

A trained soldier should not empty 1/4 of a mag just making snapshots, especially when he tries to conserve ammo like it would be appropiate in the setting.
This has been heavily discussed on these forums pre alpha and i hope someone of the devs reads those threads. :(

Just out of curiosity, i thought several servicemen were consultants for this (says so in the kickstarter description), did they really agree with this much of a waste of ammo? I know some milsim units in arma consisting of former servicemen who would outright kill when this much ammo is wasted... :lol:
 
StainlessSteelCynic
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon 17 Aug 2020, 11:17

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Sun 29 Nov 2020, 17:05


I dunno about the Austeyr (Australian made Steyr AUG), but I suspect the same applies ... no select fire in the ones issued to regular grunts.
I started with the SLR in the mid-1980s and finished with the F88 Austeyr in the mid-1990s. The F88 is select fire, It has a two-stage trigger, a short pull gives single shot and a longer pull allows full auto.
The trigger has a stud on the bottom that can be released to prevent the trigger being pulled all the way back and thus preventing full auto fire. It was typically used in initial familiarisation and training to prevent full auto fire but once the soldier was qualified we never used the stud again. I was in an infantry company at the time so yes, these were the rifles issued to the regular grunts
 
welsh
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:53

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Mon 30 Nov 2020, 00:20

Re ammo dice and availability, my reading of the rules is....

1) if you get 1 on two dice, you get a mishap, so ammo dice make mishaps far too likely,
2) every mishap reduces the reliability of the weapon until it breaks, which makes broken weapons far too likely.

But
3) there is a saving throw using two base dice corresponding to weapon reliability, and if this fails, you get a jam, so every mishap does not result in a jam.

Really, I don't think the problem is with the ammo dice, which are a good idea in many ways. The problem is with the mishap rule. I don't think "mishaps" should automatically reduce weapon reliability. I would at first blush houserule it more like this:
1) if you get 1 on two dice, including ammo dice, you have a potential mishap;
2) on a potential mishap, you do the saving throw in 3 above;
3) if that roll fails, you get a stoppage (& clearing a stoppage is a Ranged Combat task, failing which has no consequences other than your weapon is still unusable);
4) if the saving roll is snake eyes, you reduce weapon reliability.

I would further houserule that one die in the saving roll is weapon reliability and the other is ammo quality (A-D, assume the default is C), which seems to me to be an important aspect of the setting that is missing from the rules (in every edition, I think?), so with an A weapon and "standard" ammo (C) you have 1D12 & 1D8. One consequence is that unless using unreliable or improvised firearm, the biggest influence on mishaps will be ammunition.
 
Diamond_spear
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Joined: Mon 30 Nov 2020, 04:25

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Mon 30 Nov 2020, 04:32

Reading the rules it says that you “can” add ammo dice not that you “must”. That seems to resolve a lot of the perceived issues.
 
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omnipus
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon 22 Jun 2020, 20:58

Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Mon 30 Nov 2020, 07:53

Generally I think this combat system is complex enough and does not need any more steps.

However, I agree that on paper the rate of mishaps and ammo use seems a little high. Of course, as Fenhorn has suggested a few times, it seems like the real solution probably lies with the player. If the PC is a hardened Ranger SEAL Secret Squirrel with Ranged Combat A, then probably he is confident that he may be able to achieve his goals without resorting to the full ROF of the weapon. I intend to playtest it soon with some people and find out how it goes as written.

If it feels wrong, my idea of what I may try:

1. a system like welsh outlines that just adds one more saving throw step to mishaps to reduce their frequency a bit but still leave plenty of room for reliability to be a factor
2. use D4s instead of D6s for ammo dice, and
3. possibly require 1s to trigger a mishap rather than two

I don't love option 2 because D4s suck, and there's no way that will ever be the "official" answer... but if I have to house rule it, it could work. I'd rather play at least a full session or two RAW first to see how big of a deal it actually is. I'm more interested in the game being fun and having the right overall feeling than every moment feeling accurate. But I'll be playing with a number of other experienced real world shooters and active duty enlisted who may feel otherwise!
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Mon 30 Nov 2020, 08:23

Reading the rules it says that you “can” add ammo dice not that you “must”. That seems to resolve a lot of the perceived issues.
The rules also states "from a minimum of one up to the rate of fire ..."

The easiest solution to this is to change this to what you say "from a minimum of zero ...". That way you could fire just one bullet, or a handfull (or more). Some weapons ROF must also be adjusted because they have ROF of over 1 but a magazine cap of less than 6. I might be wrong how this is suppose to work of course but in that case, FL should clear up the rule a bit.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
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Tomas
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Re: Ammo Dice...why?

Mon 30 Nov 2020, 12:14

Hi, a quick note here - tweaking exactly how common mishap rolls will be is on our todo-list. But, as some have already stated, remember that:
*All mishap rolls don't result in a jam (in fact, only a minority do if you have a weapon in decent shape).
*You don't need to use all your ammo dice for every roll. In fact, it will often be wise to use fewer than the maximum amount, to conserve ammo and decrease the risk of the weapon being jammed or damaged. This is the whole point with the ammo dice rules.
Fria Ligan
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