Olefin
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Re: [ALPHA] THE WORLD AT WAR comments/feedback

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 03:27

The entire US carrier is anchored at Stockholm makes no sense at all - its been debated in detail at the forum juhlin site but there is no way - as in ZERO PERCENT - that a US supercarrier woud be going to Stockholm. To get it there we are talking upwards of 100km of sailing, almost every single step of it within range of shoulder fired AT weaponry!
And I'm not even talking very sophisticated, modern systems either, RPG-7's and the like! Imagine what you could do with a couple of 105 tank guns or the like, or a small battery of 81mm mortars and delayed fuses.

Also Oxdjupet is a narrow strait in the sea lane into Stockholm. There's a 19th century fortress there. The ferries/cruise lines to Åland and Finland pass though it everyday. Ships that use it that are 28 meter wide are literally brushing the shore. A Nimitz-class carrier is 40 m wide at the water line, 77 m wide max. 317 m long at WL. There is no way it gets thru that strait not without either grounding or hitting something on the shore - and that is if they perfectly stay in the channel.

It is literally impossible for that ship to be there - and it being part of the World at War background needs to be changed. Sorry but unless the USN literally went insane they would never order it there. I dont know who you have as military analysts but its pretty obvious they dont know much about reading maps or physics or navigation.
 
Olefin
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Re: [ALPHA] THE WORLD AT WAR comments/feedback

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 03:46

Perhaps a little bit of calm and consideration might be called for. Speculating in categorical statements on what others actually mean by their texts or really are interested in isn't conducive to a constructive discussion — on either side.


A clarification could indeed also be called for.

The way the history currently reads, at least to me, is as follows: NATO moves troops into Poland; these meet stiff resistance from the enemy and crumble over time down to at best 10% of their original power, losing their armour to depleted spare part reserves and their artillery to depleted ammo.
"Operation Reset" collects the last scattered remnants into a cohesive force and launches an offensive. In spite of initial successes, managing to cut the Soviets off from command and supply lines, they still face a superior enemy — who, to boot, somehow retains both armour and artillery — and are finally annihilated, the last few survivors fleeing into the woods.
Thus, in the end, the Soviets have during the course of the war obliterated all the combined NATO forces that have moved into Poland, while still themselves managing to maintain unit cohesion.

Now, if this summary does not reflect the story as it's intended to read, then yes: a clarification might be a good idea.
If it does, then it obviously doesn't need any clarification. But it does in that case imply a ... let us say, very powerful Soviet Union.


Not all of us are engaged in discussions on other forums or in social media ... for my own part, I am neither; nor do I know who (if any) are. But as for the present context, I am sure we would all hope to see a continued discussion in a mutually constructive spirit.
Hence the question: if other avenues to reach a final environment that fulfils the requirements of the core premise, but also fixes the plausibility issues in the back story that some of us have argued for on basis of factual military history etc — would there be an interest to keep an open mind towards amending the backstory? Or is deeper feedback on the worldbuilding actually undesired; rendering any and all discussion on the backstory meaningless from the outset?
Thus that means that 8 Corps are destroyed in just Poland who participated in Reset - which FYI are Tomas's own words or Chris Lites or whoever wrote the Secret handout and page 148 of the Player Manual. Thus either the Secret Handout and the Player Manual were completely mistranslated into English if they were originally written in Swedish or the authors are not stating correctly their own work. As someone who wrote a CANON (not fan-canon but official canon) Twilight 2000 Sourcebook it is very clear that when you tell people that they are wrong about what you wrote that you need first to go back and read it - especially when it is quote verbatim to you.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: [ALPHA] THE WORLD AT WAR comments/feedback

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 04:29

Moderator Message: If you want to discuss this, please do but be civil and respectful when you do. If you can't do it without adding personal attacks don't do it at all. My tolerance level is at zero, I don't have much patience left for people who think they are some sort of mouthpiece for others or for hobby experts. Don't test me. It is not hard to discuss things in a friendly manner, it has worked for years here.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
AEB
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Re: [ALPHA] THE WORLD AT WAR comments/feedback

Mon 14 Dec 2020, 04:58

Another example of world building WW3 - Future War 198X a Japanese Anime.

From Wikipedia.
On 16 September of a unspecified year in the 1980s, the United States conducts an orbital test of the new Space Ranger antimissile laser defense system. American scientist Burt Gains oversees the test under the aegis of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency with the target warhead being launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base as the international media covers it. After the Space Ranger module successfully destroys the warhead, the crew of the Space Voyager shuttle carrying the module returns to worldwide adulation. Gains looks at the successful test as a sign that nuclear war can be prevented, but has reservations about its potential to inflame the nuclear arms race. His sister Laura and his best friend Wataru Mikumo soon find out that he was kidnapped by Soviet spies while heading off to work. A Soviet Alfa-class submarine is tasked to transport Burt to Vladivostok. Seeing the danger of Burt forced to replicate his Space Ranger work for the Soviets, US President Gibson orders the submarine sunk with nuclear torpedoes.

Tension builds up between the US and the USSR in the wake of the sinking, with President Gibson attempting a peaceful solution with the Soviets, who promptly put their forces in Eastern Europe on high alert. Wataru is promoted to lead the Space Ranger research team as Laura is medically confined due to depression over her brother's death.

On Christmas Eve, the Soviets get the news that an elite Soviet Air Force pilot has defected, flying the USSR's most advanced strike aircraft, the Black Dragon, to a West German Air Force base in West Germany. Fearful of NATO acquiring Black Dragon's technology, the Soviets launch a Spetsnaz commando raid to kill the pilot and destroy the plane. The raid is but the first act of the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact going into battle, easily blasting across West Germany and the Low Countries, eventually capturing Paris.

The Soviets keep up the offensive, with attacks on Iran, Turkey, and the other parts of the Middle East to capture oil resources while launching airstrikes on Japan; China joins the war as well, ordering PLA forces to attack the USSR's Far East region. US forces invade Cuba. Soviet First Deputy Premier Kutuzov convenes the Politburo on Premier Orlov's behalf and proposes a ceasefire to secure oil rights to the Middle East while plotting to arrest Defense Minister Bulgarin, who earlier pushed Orlov to go to war. However, Bulgarin appears and has the entire Politburo arrested.

A Soviet Navy ballistic missile submarine receives orders to launch on the US, but comes under attack from the US Navy and sustains heavy damage. Waiting for a recall order from Premier Orlov himself, the submarine captain refuses to launch the missiles, but with the sub rapidly sinking, his executive officer kills him and completes the launch with his communications officer. Several US cities are destroyed in the attack and President Gibson authorizes a limited nuclear counterstrike. Bulgarin launches a second strike while one of his assistants kills Orlov as he tries to negotiate peace with Gibson over the hotline. The Soviet attack hits more US and allied cities, with casualties estimated at 20 million. Gibson learns that Vandenberg is still safe and authorizes the Space Ranger's deployment with Wataru sent up as well. Meanwhile, survivors in the war zones begin a peace movement together with deserting soldiers. When Bulgarin learns that the deserters include Soviet and Warsaw Pact troops, he prepares to launch all remaining Soviet nuclear missiles, but Kutuzov reappears in a bid to force him to stop. Bulgarin is killed, but not before he presses the launch button with the override canceled.

Word of the new strike inbound reaches Gibson and the Space Ranger forces, with four modules in orbit to stop the warheads. While the satellites destroy many MIRV warheads, three are destroyed by the Soviets' killer satellite network and one warhead severely damages the fourth and the Space Voyager shuttle. Wataru decides to head to the last remaining satellite and repair it ahead of another wave of MIRVs before his oxygen runs out. The module is repaired and Wataru shoots down seven MIRVs, but is forced to maneuver the satellite to get close and shoot down the eighth bearing down on Los Angeles, but the blast shakes him loose from the module and out into space. Laura, who was evacuated to the US after being caught in the Soviet airstrikes on Japan, flies in another shuttle to save Wataru while Kutuzov orders the crew of a nearby Soviet space station to rescue him.

The combat animations are very good, all hand-draw cells.

Example with music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsWvtUoAzXM
 
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Black Vulmea
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Re: [ALPHA] THE WORLD AT WAR comments/feedback

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 06:53

A modest proposal . . .

While I agree that T2K is ultimately a survival roleplaying game, I think it's important for the players and their characters to feel grounded in the setting. That doesn't require speculative history of the whole world, just enough to say, this is how you got here.

I was a wargamer before I was a roleplayer, and my sensibilities skew toward the notion that speculative history should feel plausible. I saw something on another forum that I liked: borrowing the notion of 'IMTU' - In My Traveller Universe - and applying it to T2K. I'm not a fan of v4's World At War, and I wasn't fond of v1's, either; I house-ruled the latter, and I'll do the same with the former if it comes to that. I expect that, in IMT2KU, Gorbachev never becomes General Secretary - Romanov, perhaps, or Grishin - and the USSR and the Warsaw Pact crack but don't shatter - no Autumn of Nations, no parade of sovereignties. Instead Yugoslavia falls apart and the Soviets, in the convenient spirit of pan-Slavism, ride to Serbia's rescue. The Adriatic becomes the most dangerous waterway in the world, even as the US battles Iraqi insurgents in Baghdad and Mosul after liberating Kuwait without the benefit of a coalition - all those NATO troops are on alert at home as Italy, Greece, and Turkey are now eye to eye with the Soviets in Slovenia and Macedonia, right up to the moment somebody flicks a match into the powder keg and frontiers from the Barents to the Aegean dissolve into flames and dust.

Now, do the boys and girls of the 5th ID (Mech) - or their Swedish brethren in Uppsala - really care about any of this? They may know who crossed the East German frontier first, and who fired the first tactical nuke, and they're scared shitless for their families as Ivan's boomers 'limitedly exchange' their nuclear missiles with cities and suburbs back home, but their day to day doesn't extend to stuff like Pakistan and India getting pugnacious in Kashmir while China eyes Arunachal Pradesh and eagerly waits for the USA to be so stretched that no one's minding the store on Taiwan. That sort of speculative political geo-wank is purely for me at the skinny end of the table.

So here's my challenge, Free Leaguers: tighten the focus and ease off the reins. Rather than telling us what happened, tell us what that US combat engineer or that Swedish gunner or that Polish militia fighter believes to be true. Drill down on what they've seen first-hand, and leave the rest undefined, couched in rumor, to be discovered through actual play.

And players and referees, get comfortable with the idea that there is more than one future history to experience. Your T2KU may be different from my T2KU and that's not a bad thing.
 
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pansarskott
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Re: [ALPHA] THE WORLD AT WAR comments/feedback

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 07:56

Any description of the state of the world becomes canon when it's put into the game. This is the foundation that all other writers must conform to when writing new modules. If that foundation isn't solid, different writers will/might stray away in different directions creating an inconsistent world.


If players had been given the opportunity to give feedback on canon-TU before release, there might have been less need for IMTU.
 
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Black Vulmea
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Re: [ALPHA] THE WORLD AT WAR comments/feedback

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 08:58

Any description of the state of the world becomes canon when it's put into the game. This is the foundation that all other writers must conform to when writing new modules. If that foundation isn't solid, different writers will/might stray away in different directions creating an inconsistent world.
'Consistent worlds' are a concern for developers. Even the most strictly canonical module is just clay to me when I run it, to be shaped how I think it fits best.

There are plenty of ways to publish excellent modules without requiring a setting bible: drop-in locations, frex, the prison in the Alpha rules, or an equipment guide, frex, the BMP series of APCs with an adventure attached. Any referee can make use of these, particularly if you, say, dual-stat non-player characters, one Polish or Russian, one Swedish, frex, the warden of the prison is Yevgeni Mikhailovich Strobolov (Poland) or Lars Andersson (Sweden) and here are his stats . . .
 
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pansarskott
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Re: [ALPHA] THE WORLD AT WAR comments/feedback

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 09:52

sure, you can do small stuff that doesn't really use the game's timeline. Just "war in Poland/Sweden against Soviet". But if you want a larger scale, the official timeline becomes the constraint the new stuff has to fit into.
 
paladin2019
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Re: [ALPHA] THE WORLD AT WAR comments/feedback

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 09:56

As long as there is no meta-plot, everything not in a module series assumes the same start point, etc.
 
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Black Vulmea
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Re: [ALPHA] THE WORLD AT WAR comments/feedback

Tue 15 Dec 2020, 10:58

But if you want a larger scale, the official timeline becomes the constraint the new stuff has to fit into.
Why do you want to constrain gamers to an official timeline? How does this make the game better?

As long as there is no meta-plot, everything not in a module series assumes the same start point, etc.
Perfect. Stop the timeline with Kalisz. Put the game in gamers' hands and let them figure out what happens next. Give them tools, not 'series.' Give them mysteries, not 'canon.' Give inspiration. Help gamers create.

Look, I know this is never going to happen; v4 is going to follow the same model as v1, one module leading to the next, another game of 'adventure paths' tethered to a meta-plot. The inevitability is tragic, because it doesn't have to be this way. This is a unique chance to preserve one of the greatest sandbox settings devised for roleplaying games, to let the future be written hundreds of times over, but the awful truth is, it won't be because that isn't the business model of roleplaying games anymore.

I'm just saying, it doesn't have to be like this. Carry on.

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