Arrigo74
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Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sat 28 Nov 2020, 23:33

Respectfully,

I was being sarcastic yes, but sarcasm maybe cynical, not disrespectful.

Said that... saying that in alternative history there are no right or wrong... is wrong per se. Alternative history is not science fiction. Some things are plausible, some are possible, some are plain wrong. What we are trying to point clear issues with the UK background, often sharing data and personal knowledge. I think plenty of us invested in this project because they hoped for a realistic RPG that depicts a plausible WW3 rather than a fanciful story. Otherwise, you can simple say someone from the future opened a portal to allow a new Soviet Army created from radioactive dust to invade UK. And before you say I am too sarcastic... it is not an attack on the writers, it is just a mention of Harry Turtledove book in which South African white supremacist time travel to give AK-47 to the confederate army... that was sci-fi non alternate history (despite him trying to pass it for the latter). Alternate History is Chris Perello in an old Command Magazine discussing the opportunity for Lee to implement is 2nd Day plan at Gettysburg and its possible outcomes. There are rights and wrongs in alternate history.

Funnily enough I had a similar discussion eons ago with a student who was wanted to write an alternate history dissertation. It was a bit over the top, with the classic novel approach of 'this is the bright move and the opponent will not react in any way to spoil it' and me and other teacher finally persuaded him to focus on a more focused work analyzing axis chances of a successful implementation of Operation C3/Herakles (the invasion of Malta). But there are definite dangers of starting with alternate history and ending in science fiction.
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The1TrueFredrix
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Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sat 28 Nov 2020, 23:35

so we are at comic strip level... no wonder the reaction... :?
Well, we are all playing “let’s pretend.” :)
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Fenhorn
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Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sat 28 Nov 2020, 23:41

Moderator Message: If you have any problem with me please direct that to me in a PM or directly to an admin (there are links at the bottom of the page), not in a post. I have been friendly so far and my message was written proactively, before anyone do crosses the line.
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Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sat 28 Nov 2020, 23:52

so we are at comic strip level... no wonder the reaction... :?
Well, we are all playing “let’s pretend.” :)

Not really, we're (mostly, here at least) grognards with a considerable understanding of Cold War realities, Geopolitics and things like Logistics ('In war there are only three important things ... Logistics, Logistics and Logistics!') and TW2000 1e was passable as a semi-believable background for WW3. 2e was less so, but not because the USSR had some sort of massive fantasy economy behind rearmament. 2013 was a bad joke.

This version? I'm of two minds ... it's not as awful as 2013, probably, but its worse than 2e.

Just my .02c worth.

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Author: Space Opera (FGU); Rigger Black Book #1 (FASA); Orbis Mundi 2, The Marketplace, Ithura & Porthaven, Fantasy Europe (PGD); Road to Armageddon & Supplements, Displaced, Audace ad Gloriam, Farm, Forge & Steam (PGD).
 
JerryB
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Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sun 29 Nov 2020, 10:51

Just make it the Royal Wessex Yeomanry defending Yeovilton Naval Air Station or something (i.e a credible TA unit defending a credible military objective). Simple fix.

RNAS Yeovilton and Yeovil are both nuclear targets, so that's probably not an option ;) I grew up near the former and was born in the latter.
 
JerryB
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Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sun 29 Nov 2020, 11:03

It was not my intention in starting this thread for it to be acrimonious. My concern really was to have, even in a basic outline as per the Alpha section, a viable starting point on which to base playing the RPG in a UK setting. It was also based on the fact that the GDW sourcebook on the UK was largely unusable to me as a referee in the UK and with English players. We used the various unit etc things but the actual setting was too far removed from a believable reality to be useable. My concern was that the Alpha text was almost suggesting the same thing, so I wondering how much was set in stone at this point. I was also wondering how, if the text was to stay as it is, how UK players could run any games in that setting.

Actually, to add some further thoughts, when I found out that FL was going to reboot the rpg, I was wondering if they were going to publish any sourcebooks and scenarios and whether they'd allow or encourage 3rd party material. I'd like to create some (and for Poland). Some scenarios in the UK sprang to mind, but the Alpha text makes that a bit fiddly if it becomes the canon setting.

If the concern by the writing team is that the UK, on the face of it, is not an interesting setting as such and thus needs to have exotic situations - such as King Charles, and the SU invasion - I would humbly ask that they perhaps ask UK players what they think would work. The setting IMHO can be made interesting using other situations that can be the basis for expansion, possibly - and hopefully - in future material.

I would also hope that if such a discussion were to occur, it would be a civil one.
 
Nicolas Michon
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Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sun 29 Nov 2020, 11:36

Hello Jerry B,

Yes, let's keep this civil. Your points are very well taken - I tried to conciliate your valid concerns with having an end result that approaches that in the book, but fixing the unnecessarily weird stuff (logistics are unforgiving, and enough players have either a military background or an interest in the matter to spot stuff like that) - while providing a plot "hook" for PCs wanting to play Soviet paratroopers stranded in the UK (who now have a motive to seek revenge on the corrupt KGB agents responsible for their predicament). Lemme know what you think. I purposely left the domestic situation alone because I am not an expert.

Taking a step back, the parts of the setting that have been improved the most are those that benefitted from input by locals: Swedish, Polish ..... and, generally speaking, Europeans, so the crazy "every European nation fights everybody else" narrative found in previous editions has disappeared.

So let's bring in our English and Irish friends for some realistic, gloomy, British Isles in the Twilight!

Now I will go in and make some suggestions on the French situation: I am actually happy France got hit by nukes (:-D), and will try to flesh out the tweaks I have suggested in the Dropbox.
 
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The1TrueFredrix
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Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sun 29 Nov 2020, 12:31

Actually, to add some further thoughts, when I found out that FL was going to reboot the rpg, I was wondering if they were going to publish any sourcebooks and scenarios and whether they'd allow or encourage 3rd party material. I'd like to create some (and for Poland). Some scenarios in the UK sprang to mind, but the Alpha text makes that a bit fiddly if it becomes the canon setting.
When we spoke to Mark Millar on this he suggested there was the possibility of a FLW community created content license, so yes there may be the opportunity for fans to create scenarios. I wonder if the community here can reach a consensus as to the sort of games they want to write for Britain? I have already expressed my preference for Bill Savage against Russian invaders. But if Russian antagonist are not what the majority want, do we instead want "Threads" style fighting each other over the last can of beans? Or a Britain left on the edge of war like Alan Moore's V for Vendetta? Or something else?
Effekt - A fan podcast celebrating Swedish RPGs including, but not limited to: Alien; Coriolis; Forbidden Lands; Symbaroum; and Tales from the Loop. Featuring discussion magazine episodes and Actual Play recordings. https://effektpodcast.org/
 
Arrigo74
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Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sun 29 Nov 2020, 13:38

I have already expressed my preference for Bill Savage against Russian invaders. But if Russian antagonist are not what the majority want, do we instead want "Threads" style fighting each other over the last can of beans? Or a Britain left on the edge of war like Alan Moore's V for Vendetta? Or something else?
I think there are tow different school of thought here. Some see a realistic background as an important, if not critical, part of the setting. Other see it as an springboard for any kind of outlandish comic book style adventure. To the former the current setting grates and is a major awful point, to the latter it is just part of the fun. Of course both sides can simply threw the setting in the bin and write their own, one of the good parts of RPG after all, but probably to both it will appear as a form of cheating.

Certainly one can argue that FL promised detail, and realism in the campaign, and then turned out that that promise appear to be largely undelivered in the alpha. One can also argue that thare are plenty of outlandish post apocalyptic RPG while T2K selling point was its claim to a certain realism...

Here we are just trying to suggest way to close the gap between promises and reality and highlight the areas that need fix.
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udxr226
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Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sun 29 Nov 2020, 13:42

Hello all,

First time poster here. I live in the UK (specifically Scotland) and have been playing T2K since the game first came out in the 80’s, including playing and running several campaigns based in the UK using a substantially rewritten V1 background. I’m also old enough to remember Bill Savage and his shotgun…

I do have to add my voice to those stating that a Soviet invasion of the UK is utterly implausible / unrealistic for reasons that others have already mentioned. If there’s a desire to include some sort of contingent of Soviet troops in the UK I’d suggest the most straightforward way to achieve that is to revisit the idea of a group (or groups) of escaped Soviet POW’s being at large that featured in V1. I don’t think it would be unreasonable to have several groups numbering into the hundreds being able to take control of towns or even part of a County.


But if Russian antagonist are not what the majority want, do we instead want "Threads" style fighting each other over the last can of beans? Or a Britain left on the edge of war like Alan Moore's V for Vendetta? Or something else?

Personally, I prefer something a few shades lighter than Threads. Governments (British, Scottish, Welsh) exist but their areas of control are limited. Outside their territory conditions vary - some areas are more or less free fire zones, others are organised under some sort of local leadership of varying effectiveness / motives. Some independent towns might have banded together to form mutual cooperatives, others might be fighting each other over resources (offering scope for PC’s to act as mercenaries, convoy guards, etc).

If you want to use a TV analogy the one that springs to mind is the remake of ‘Survivors’ that the BBC put out a few years ago. I think that can give ample scope for interesting game options without resorting to a full scale Soviet invasion. There can be tensions between the Separatist Governments (Scottish and Welsh) and the rump UK Government. There could be a cabal of Military officers seeking to seize power for themselves in a coup. Various ‘Easter Eggs’ could be scattered across the Country to be found - the Crown Jewels, the Honours of Scotland (the Scottish Crown Jewels), perhaps a prominent member of the Royal Family is missing (or a member of the (presumably fictional) Prime Minister’s family if you prefer to avoid using real people). Maybe some Soviet backpack nukes are stored in a cache in the Peak District and PC’s have to engage in a race against a covert GRU team to recover them. That’s all before you get into more conventional stuff like various marauder ‘Armies’ that need to be dealt with.

Cheers

Dave

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