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JerryB
Topic Author
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri 27 Nov 2020, 02:28

Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sun 29 Nov 2020, 13:47

Well, one angle is going to be the effort to rebuild things, another is who the players decide to throw their lot in with. I've already pointed out that there would be measures to 'start again' from what's left of the civil defence system. Maybe by the time the players get back to the UK, some of that somewhere is starting to take shape. However, there's going to be various problems in the way. I don't buy into the kind of 'Mad Max' type of marauding gangs trope, but I do think that on a local level there might be various parties who have gone their own way and that might not always be for the best. But 'best' might depend on the players' point of view. If fifty percent of the population have been killed, there's still enough people around to start forming into groups or communities. Possibly they're working with what's left of local government, or maybe they've formed ways of creating a food supply and are working in some sort of community to that end. Of course, there might be enough people around who are dangerous enough to be able to cause problems with these kinds of situations. Or it might be that the conflicts arise from differing ideas as to what's the best way to rebuild. It might even be that various aspects of surviving government don't agree with each other, and this has led to conflict in some form. If so many people have died, it's very possible that a lot more will die in the next 5 or so years simply because the UK hasn't been an agricultural society for quite some time, and generally people have no idea how to look after themselves in terms of food etc. It's possible that there's a growing divide between survivors in the countryside and those from towns and cities who've generally filtered away from urban areas. There will still be towns and even some cities that haven't been destroyed, just depopulated.
 
Arrigo74
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri 04 Sep 2020, 13:24

Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sun 29 Nov 2020, 13:57

The Mad Max thing is very cinematic, but highly fanciful... as their shoulders' pads...

I think there will be an increase in semi-organized crime especially in the surviving cities, with some people trying to exploit the situation for their own gain. There were similar problems in Europe immediately after WW2 too. But there will be some sort of order and martial law. These UK infantry brigades are not going to disappear. Some soldiers can indeed exploit margin of power for their gains too (part of the post May 1945 German crime gangs were staffed by GI moonlighting as gangsters...).

What I argue is that UK should be a different experience from war torn Poland and possibly Germany. From a British Army perspective it would not be facing the soviet threat, at least not directly, but supporting the reconstruction effort. It could involve combat, but not always and not in the same scale that in other European countries. For the civilians it will be altogether different too.
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pansarskott
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon 24 Aug 2020, 19:29

Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sun 29 Nov 2020, 14:28

I think there are tow different school of thought here. Some see a realistic background as an important, if not critical, part of the setting. Other see it as an springboard for any kind of outlandish comic book style adventure.
It feels a bit like small pieces of cool/comic stuff was thrown in. The illustration on pp 59 of player's manual looks a bit odd, compared to other. Aircraft carriers in the middle of Stockholm is another example of ideas that were cool, but doesn't really fit in (but I would accept it without hesitation in a Mutant game). THE CHURCH OF THE BRIDE OF CHRIST is another (where only Swedes get the background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knutby_murder)..maybe Mutant is shining through a bit?

Minor things that could be used as adventure hooks gets to be a 'too big' part of the canon history. And there seems to be an mismatch of expectations.

That's my feeling.
 
Evildrsmith
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat 09 Nov 2019, 18:34

Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sun 29 Nov 2020, 15:15

Dave (udxr226) has actually summed up my thoughts on what the UK should be pretty well.

A full-on militarily setting already exists in Poland/Germany, so I would look to the UK setting to be significantly different, not just yet more bandits, but with different weapons and different accents.
There isn't really a credible mechanism* for large military forces in the UK, other than the British military (and survivors of US airbases). Given that the UK has low firearms ownership, it stretches suspension of disbelief to have significant armed forces all over the country. So a 'full-on' military setting becomes a version of Poland/Germany, but against 4th rate opponents, and is going to be a bit 'meh!'

As I've alluded to in some earlier posts, I was hoping T2K;4e would not just be the 'military setting' of 1st ed, but would provide options for a setting that included rebuilding: not just 'base building' for somewhere for the PCs to operate out of, but 'helping to rebuild society' type stuff. Still hazards to overcome (bad guys with guns, the environment, political games amongst those in charge, diplomacy with break-away regions or 'free towns', etc, etc). (And of course, we have yet to see the base building rule, so maybe this is all coming)

So a UK setting like 'Survivors' as suggested, possible with elements of 'the last train' (also a UK TV mini series from about 20 years ago) would seem to work.
Clearly different from Poland/Germany, with distinctly different challenges to overcome.

*Ok, if you really insist on having someone invade the UK, make it the French. They at least would have the capability to do it.
 
JerryB
Topic Author
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri 27 Nov 2020, 02:28

Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Sun 29 Nov 2020, 16:02

Yes, I think what's shaped the way the UK description in the Alpha is that the situation there would not be 'interesting' and thus had to be spiced up with a Soviet invasion etc. I don't think that would be needed. True, as the UK isn't a militarised society (i.e. guns aren't at all common) and wouldn't have much left in the way of military resources, the trope that it has problems with roving armed gangs is not very believable. If anything, if the players get to the UK with most of their kit, they pretty much represent a strongish military element in and of themselves with few people being able to do much to counter them. There would be still armed elements around, stemming from the civil defence side of things, so one would have to figure out which side they were on, if any. I agree that the approach to the UK and probably a fair few other countries within the wider setting would need some treatment WRT world building, i.e. as a kind of 'What happens next' situation. Maybe that will be covered via base building rules, but that depends on how militarised that is.
 
matthewsylvester
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 14:03

Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 14:12

From the King Charles perspective. I'd rather see some sort of coup by dissafected troops and politicians with Charles as the figurehead. He could then - possibly - use forces loyal to the idea of a monarchy as opposed to yet more politicians to take some form of limited power. We would then see England split by another civil war. Giving lots of good opportunities for roleplaying.

Cornwall's situation is just daft. I actually laughed.

The idea of the IRA (any of them), having enough man power to carry out such a purge is also too far fetched. A massive escalation of violence would be more realistic.
 
AEB
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat 19 Sep 2020, 06:01

Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 14:27

The irony being that a nuclear war is probably the only chance Charles would ever have of sitting on the throne.
 
Evildrsmith
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat 09 Nov 2019, 18:34

Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 14:59

I wonder whether the easiest solution to the situation in the UK is to delete the section under the general war heading in 1998
"Then, the Northern Fleet finally stops playing with the Royal Navy,
sweeping them aside, and launches an invasion of the British
isles. The few UK troops left, supported by a detachment of
recovering US soldiers, stage a desperate defense. Tactical
nuclear strikes devastate coastal settlements."

and to delete the whole UK specific section.

The details are pretty sketchy even if you are happy with the concepts in them (which quite a few of us clearly are not).
Leave it completely blank.
If players want an invasion of the UK by the SU, they can come up with it. If players want a new British Civil War (the English Civil War was actually more a Britain-wide thing), or a 'survivor' style setting, or a 'Knights of God' theocracy, then they can.

If and when FL ever get around to a new 'survivors' guide to the UK', they can take their time at coming up with a well thought out background (which may even benefit from player feedback as to alternate settings that would be good to have available).
Meanwhile, they haven't painted themselves into a corner by making definite statements as to the condition in the UK.

Does the existing UK background really add much to the game, and could that column of text be more usefully given over to expending the rules, extra gear, or more detail for Germany or the US or wherever?
 
Arrigo74
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri 04 Sep 2020, 13:24

Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 15:03

Still the whole RN alone had more bule water vessels at the end of the Cold War that the Northern Fleet. There is this underlying issue, the Soviet Union was not a seapower.
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Qboid
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed 02 Dec 2020, 13:10

Re: [ALPHA] The UK in 4E is still a bit... problematic

Wed 02 Dec 2020, 15:17

I think the UK would look more like V for Vendetta, the main enemy would be tyrannical government taking control of the remains.
Sort of like 2020 actually.
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