Jizmack
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Joined: Fri 12 Feb 2016, 23:48

Ammunition Options

Sat 05 Sep 2020, 00:52

Will the game have rules for different types of ammunition: armor piercing, hallow point, incendiary, tracers, etc?
 
Arrigo74
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Joined: Fri 04 Sep 2020, 13:24

Re: Ammunition Options

Sat 05 Sep 2020, 13:27

I assume tracers are subsumed in the system. Basically tracers are loaded at fixed intervals in ammo belt usually one in five, for squad and crew served weapons (and vehicle mgs) as an aid to aiming. Sometime squad and platoon leaders will also put them in their clip as an aid in directing fire. Said that there are not different form standard rounds in effect.

Incendiary... as far I know they are usually in semi or full AP round for autocannons. Usually to increase damage after penetration. The chaingun on the M2/M3 series fires API as standard ammo.

These are small variation that should be abstracted in damage effect, weapons accuracy and so on... basically except when you fill the belt for the .50 you do not even give that much attention at the tracers themselves. And considering the rate of fire, you think almost every round is a tracer when you fire.

Of course big differences are in larger caliber ammo. Even a 40mm grenade is different if it is illum, HE-Frag, or Smoke. in a 105mm or 120mm gun you certainly have different effects. Fire a Sabot against a truck and miss the engine block... more or less just little hole in the canvas...

A good designer knows when detial is relevant and should be presented to the players, and when to abstract. A bad designer often abstract everything, or detail everything...
 
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Vader
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Re: Ammunition Options

Sat 05 Sep 2020, 22:22

For small arms and machine guns though — highlighting the differences between ball and hollow-point for pistols and SMG's, plus also SLAP for rifles and MG's, would certainly be relevant.
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aspqrz
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Re: Ammunition Options

Mon 07 Sep 2020, 12:20

Also Match Grade ammo for specialised Snipers with specialised Sniper Rifles (rather than simply 'Designated Marksmen' with slightly improved standard Rifles).

Phil McGregor
 
Langdolin
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Re: Ammunition Options

Tue 08 Sep 2020, 02:41

I would imagine this far into the war most of the specialty ammo would have been used. So could be a special occasion kind of thing. Or good trading material.
 
Arrigo74
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Re: Ammunition Options

Tue 08 Sep 2020, 11:38

Well Tracers have a special use, but they are not that special by themselves. Some king of 'special' ammo is more appropriately described as specific to certain weapons and represent standard production but, depending on the designer, may warrant different treatment.
 
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aramis
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Re: Ammunition Options

Thu 10 Sep 2020, 03:01

For small arms and machine guns though — highlighting the differences between ball and hollow-point for pistols and SMG's, plus also SLAP for rifles and MG's, would certainly be relevant.
Hollowpoints: Only for civilians and war-criminals. Military small arms are supposed to be hardball fmj or equivalent. They're a war crime for the military to use, per the 1899 Hague Conventions. (While the US didn't sign, the US Military still follows them.)

I agree SLAP is VERY relevant. But also, it's only allowed in the anti-material role, shooting people is a war crime.
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Vader
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Re: Ammunition Options

Thu 10 Sep 2020, 13:06

For small arms and machine guns though — highlighting the differences between ball and hollow-point for pistols and SMG's, plus also SLAP for rifles and MG's, would certainly be relevant.
Hollowpoints: Only for civilians and war-criminals. Military small arms are supposed to be hardball fmj or equivalent. They're a war crime for the military to use, per the 1899 Hague Conventions. (While the US didn't sign, the US Military still follows them.)

I agree SLAP is VERY relevant. But also, it's only allowed in the anti-material role, shooting people is a war crime.
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Hollow-points are indeed forbidden for military personnel to use, but not for civilians or law enforcement — and both can be found in the game among both PC's and NPC's, so I'd still deem it relevant to describe how their effect differs from ball in this setting.

Come to think of it, hollow-points would be relevant to describe also in rifle calibers, as pretty much all hunting weapons would be loaded with them. And you'd be certain to encounter those from time to time.


SLAP ... I am not aware that they're covered by the Hague Conventions. Are you quite certain?

The projectile from a SLAP is just a solid tungsten bullet. It travels at much higher velocity than normal bullets do, thus imparting a lot of kinetic energy, which makes it very efficient in penetrating armour, but in an unprotected target it just makes a clean hole; no tumbling, no fragmentation. It won't lose much energy passing through, hence it will also do a lot less damage than a normal FMJ ball would.
This is pretty much the diametrical opposite to the effect described in the Hague Convention's "Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body".

You don't want to use them against unprotected targets, that's correct — but not because they cause "unnecessary suffering" (which is what the conventions aim to prohibit), but simply because it's inefficient.
A lot more buck per bang, for a lot less effect.

If they were banned, it would also mean that if you had SLAP loaded in a weapon, and were suddenly assaulted by unprotected targets, you'd have to change ammo before opening fire lest you were to become a war criminal. The risk would make it practically impossible for any force to field SLAP's — and we know they've been used in armed conflict since the 80's.
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Arrigo74
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Re: Ammunition Options

Thu 10 Sep 2020, 16:35

I think the 'banning' so SLAP came mainly from Jarhead. It was the only reference I ever see on it. Also some people claimed that because the .50 is sometime designated as anti-material caliber (harking back from Browning original design that was not a machine gun, but an automatic anti-tank rifle!).

Said that using SLAP ammo against people... is frankly stupid. It is like in Harold Coyle's Bright Star using a 105mm APFDS against a group of personnel in the open. The sabot just rip the soviet general and no one else... and it was pointed out that was stupid in the book (basically the Egyptians M60 were expecting tanks and had sabot loaded). Also Tungsten is not cheap... I do not see your QM being happy with you using it on flesh... :) or your QM having it at all to start with after the nukes... :lol:
 
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pansarskott
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Re: Ammunition Options

Thu 10 Sep 2020, 16:45

Sweden uses 7,62 mm N SLAP for sniper rifles. Tungsten carbide bullet, but the main point is flatter trajectory due to higher velocity. Image

Explosive ammo is probably more questionable too use against troops... :shock:
Speaking of which;
Video on Raufoss multi-purpose ammo develop to fire on Soviet trawlers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kODcUp1cr4s

But in a T2K context with reloading of ammo, SLAP (and evenmore so Multi Purpose and similar) ammo would be rare.

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