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Star Wars Conversion - Force Powers

Posted: Fri 21 Apr 2017, 11:14
by ConnorsRPG
OK, so I have hit a little hurdle in conversion. Force Powers.

Here are the 2 options:

**1. Talents requiring a Force Use Skill Check to succeed.**
Initially, I was just going to do them as talents, as in //Coriolis//. Simply roll a Skill check for success. However Force/Mystic powers are pretty good and to balance that in //Coriolis// the GM gets Darkness Points to use vs the PCs.

Cool idea. I like it, and so easy to convert to Dark Side Points. HOWEVER, it feels inherently wrong to punish Jedi every time they use their FOrce Powers - it feels even stupider to accumulate DPs if they use their powers for good/ heroically.

I am going to have DPs in the game, but they will be a lot less common that in a //Coriolis// game - where the 'dark b/w the stars is pervasive. There, tapping into the mystical is tapping into the Darkness. Jedi etc tap into the LIGHT side of the Force.

If used for evil/selfish/etc purposes, happy to award DPs to DM, but not every use.

So, is just requiring a roll enough of a balancing factor. Meaning, do people mind if Jedi can do all these amazing things with one skill that will overshadow others skills for sure.


**2. Force Powers as Mutant Powers**

Or do we limit the use of Force powers by treating them like Mutant powers. You don't get many Mutant Points in //Mutant: Year Zero//, but we could allow more. Could even have the mechinc about getting more if you 'Trust to the FOrce' more.

All fun, but it means another subsystem.

Moreso though, Mutant & Animal powers spend points and the power automatically succeeds. I am not a fan of Force powers always succeeding. I much prefer a roll.

So I am at a quandary. Other option is to combine. Have Force Points to spend but still require a roll? Which makes me think just use the 1st option. But again, seems pretty good. Some (inc me) are OK with Jedi seeming awesome, but some will not like this. Mind you, you can still only perform 1 action per turn anyway.

Anyway, which way to go? I want to keep simple. These systems are already in place, so which one or combo?

Re: Star Wars Conversion - Force Powers

Posted: Fri 21 Apr 2017, 16:36
by VoxenTass
I've also been toying with the idea of converting Force Powers, but since I'm a 2nd Ed player to this day, I'm not quite sure how the newer versions of powers work. Seems to me what you laid out in option 1 is probably closer to what I'd go with.
Getting a darkness point per use of Force powers doesn't seem too much of a problem for me, as all mystic powers do the same, and a few of them mirror force powers (clairvoyant, mind reader, tk, premonition) and they all generate a darkness point as well. Such would be the cost of tapping mystical powers, keeping in mind these dp are used more as a karma/story telling tool than a player punishment. That would be the domain of the dark points they would accumulate through evil acts.
The other things I'd been considering were just tying the force powers to the Mystic ability (since it's essentially the same thing anyways) or creating another advanced skill: Force Powers, and perhaps adding a force activation pool. Every time you purchase a new force power you add x points to the pool, all powers cost 1 point to use and the pool refreshes each session (or game if you prefer). This allows for some variety while still keeping the powers from dominating the game. I think for "x" I might go with 1 point per level of Mystic ability; skill level 3, every power learned would generate 3 points into the pool.
Just what I've been tossing around so far :)

Re: Star Wars Conversion - Force Powers

Posted: Fri 21 Apr 2017, 18:01
by Kaeam
Personally I would use the Mystic Powers rules as they are as they let players use their powers as much as they want while still making it risky to depend on them too much.

However, I would add the following talent:
Force Tradition (Tradition): You have been trained in a Force Tradition (Jedi, Sith, Baran Do etc.), which allows you to use the Force in more controlled manner. Whenever you test Force Use, roll a die: If the result is 4 or more, the GM doesn't receive the usual Darkness Point. This talent can't be used when invoking Force Powers of opposite alignment from yours. If your Force alignment is Balanced, you can use the talent on both Light and Dark Side powers, but the die result must be 5 or more to gain the benefit.

The talent would allow trained Force users to use their powers more freely while still having the risk of giving the GM a Darkness Point. Force user concepts would automatically receive the talent at character creation, while other Force-sensitives would have to acquire it during play by joining a Force tradition.

Re: Star Wars Conversion - Force Powers

Posted: Sat 22 Apr 2017, 01:34
by ConnorsRPG
(Post copied from our own Star Wars forums).
I have read a couple of //Savage Worlds// conversions, and looking at //Saga// again.

I think I will go with both. ie. Force Powers are powered by FPs that you still make a skill roll for (not auto like Mutant & Animal powers). HOWEVER, can have Talents that tap into FPs too that do not require rolls.

So a combo of both systems, with Powers req rolls and Talents that just do stuff with FPs (like //Saga//).

Thinking that if we were to add magic to the system, this is how it would work.

Re: Star Wars Conversion - Force Powers

Posted: Sat 22 Apr 2017, 13:49
by ConnorsRPG
Ok, so seems my forum babble is next to illegible. So, I have pieced this all together on my YZE The Force Page.

Hopefully that makes things clearer there. Obviously, I now need to go and add a heap of Force Powers and talents. (Most will be based upon the Saga edition, but with rules ideas from Mutations in M:YZ). :)

Re: Star Wars Conversion - Force Powers

Posted: Sat 22 Apr 2017, 19:53
by Kaeam
Ah, so you decided to go with a "mana pool" system. A bit different than how Mystical Powers currently work but still simple enough.

Here are some question that I had after reading the page:
  1. Does Force Use still use Empathy like Mystic Powers?
  2. How exactly does one regain Force Points? You mention that one can generate more FPs by Trusting to the Force, but Trusting to the Force doesn't mention FPs at all.
  3. Doesn't Trusting to the Force become pretty dangerous as the number of dice increase? You can check the chance of rolling at least one 1 from Table 3.3. on Coriolis p.58.
  4. Wouldn't it make more sense to test Force Use when you decide to use Enter a Trance to see if you can, well, successfully enter a trance?
Here is my suggestion for another way to recover Force Points:
A Force-sensitive character can recover Force Points by successfully using Enter a Trance and meditating for at least 4 hours. When the character stops meditating, test Force Use: Each success recovers one Force Point up to the character's Force Point maximum.
  • +1 Character is meditating in a peaceful environment like a serene garden, a temple shrine or a meditation chamber.
  • -1 Character is meditating in a noisy or stressful environment like a busy building, a war zone or in the middle of a thunderstorm.
  • +1 Character is meditating in a place that has been touched by the Light (or Dark if the character is a Sith) Side of the Force.
  • -1 Character is meditating in a place that has been touched by the Dark (or Light if the character is a Sith) Side of the Force.
  • -1 Character is currently suffering from a Critical Injury.
  • -1 Character is currently emotionally distraught.
  • +1 For each additional 2 hours the character spends meditating.
Also, I had created the following option for the Force Use skill (inspired by Luke Skywalker). While it probably isn't what you had in mind, it is always good to have more options floating around in case someone else wants to use Coriolis to run Star Wars.  :)

"Use the Force"
Whether it is shooting a photon torpedo through a small exhaust port without using a targeting computer or blindly inputting a lengthy self-destruction code into a console, a Force-sensitive character can achieve the impossible by letting the Force guide her actions. When testing a skill, the character can instead make an unmodified Force Use test and resolve it as if the original skill had been used. The GM gains 1 DP whenever the character uses the Force in this fashion.

Re: Star Wars Conversion - Force Powers

Posted: Sun 23 Apr 2017, 01:57
by ConnorsRPG
Hey thanks for the feedback Kaeam. I still need to clarify a few things obviously.

Main reason I did not go with Mystic Powers, is I want actual Force Talents to NOT be rolls (like in both Mutant books). Talents add to or let you just do something else. Talents will be exactly like that Use the Force you included at the bottom of you post. (If you don't mind, I will add that as one of my 1st Talents :)).

1. Force does use Empathy. Can't believe I left off such an imp thing ;) Thanks. :)
2. Force Points are reset at start of every session. I am not a fan of Session things like this, but it is what Mutant Powers do. But given, we have FPs AND a roll, I think I will change this to per day in game? Forgot to add the FP to Trusting the Force obviously. In Mutant:Tear Zero  when you 'push' a roll and get penalties for each 1 rolled, you also get 1 MP for each. I was going to implement that too.
3. Trusting the FOrce can mean there are some negative set backs, but here a few things to remember: you CAN reroll 1's on SKill dice on initial roll (so no 1's carried over there); in Mutant you straight out suffer trauma to do this - here Force Users get a choice at least; Coriolis = GM gets a DP no matter what the roll; Extra gear dice can lead to more 1's but, I need to make it clear, gear 1's do not lead to trauma/DPs (only reduction in gear dice).
4. Enter Trance. I was not happy when I quickly copied this from the Saga skill. I too do not like what I have. I needed to look into healing and well, was too tired ;P. I like what you have. I think I will also make Force Trance a talent and just give it benefits like you have below. What about recover stress OR FPs (character's choice). WOuld that be too good. COuld that be a 2nd talent?

Cheers and thanks for taking time to read and leave constructive feedback and excellent ideas :)

Re: Star Wars Conversion - Force Powers

Posted: Sun 23 Apr 2017, 03:23
by ConnorsRPG

I have added some of you ideas to the Force Talents and Powers :) Check them out. Force Guidance = your "Use the Force" outlined above. Trance also has been changed and expanded.

Re: Star Wars Conversion - Force Powers

Posted: Sun 23 Apr 2017, 09:40
by Kaeam
I have some additional questions about the equipment degeneration aspect of Trusting to the Force:
  • Does equipment become unusable if its Bonus is reduced to 0? If yes, doesn't weapon jamming become much more common as most weapons only have +1 Bonus and you only need one unlucky Trusting to the Force roll to reduce your Bonus to 0 vs. GM having to spend 3 DP to jam your weapon.
  • Some equipment don't have bonus at all (e.g. energy whip, long rifle and primitive/ordinary tool) or even negative bonus (Vulcan Scorpion and primitive/ordinary computer). As you can't roll 1s with dice that you don't have, aren't such equipment immune to the degeneration
  • How do weapons with Reliable feature (Coriolis p.133) interact with the equipment degeneration?
Also some comments about other stuff:
  • Force Training has insane value! You basically get (Wits x 5) XP worth of talent for the price of 5 XP. If you started with Wits 3, you would have to pay 10 XP more (2 x Further Force Training) to reach the same amount of Force Powers as someone who started with Wits 5.
  • Telepathy use of Force Use looks really powerful, especially as it doesn't seem to require any Force Points. Also being able to contact someone in different part of the galaxy seems pretty insane when you read what the Wookieepedia has to say about Telepathy (the distance between London and Berlin via air is ~932.37 kilometers):
    The range of telepathy itself is theoretically infinite, but the telepath must be able to sense the presences of those they wish to contact. Thus, communicating with non-Force-sensitives became nearly impossible over distances greater than a handful of kilometers, and the typical upper limit for Force-sensitives was approximately 1,000 kilometers. However, individuals who either shared a biological relationship or a particularly strong emotional bond were known to communicate across far greater ranges. In extreme cases (such as the twin bond between Jacen and Jaina Solo), the link apparently had no spacial limit.

Re: Star Wars Conversion - Force Powers

Posted: Sun 23 Apr 2017, 15:27
by ConnorsRPG
Gear degeneration idea is straight out of //Mutant: Year Zero//. But Looking at the different bonus (and what you have to say), I think I will just scrap that.

Might come up with own House Rule similar to crit misses. ie: You MISS AND ROLL several 1's ;) I don't like tying it to "Trusting to the FOrce" myself, having thought about it, and as you pointed out some have negative mods ;) Thanks.

Force training DOES have awesome buy-in value. I did that on purpose to have functioning Jedi up and running from the get-go. I think in most systems, players accept Jedi are pretty awesome.

I was basing this on the Saga edition. Wis mod +1 = no of Force Powers. You can take it again too. But you need to select same Force Power twice if you wish to use twice. ALL FPs back after 1 minute in that system. So basically, you get all powers once per encounter. I don't like choosing powers twice.

Starting with Wits in number I don't think is going to be that big a deal. Form that point on, it is certainly harder to get more, but want to start with a few choices - remember, limited by # of FPs. You can't actually do a lot. Just have more choice. It is not unusual for games to grant a greater investment of features at the start that would from there take several levels to amass.

Furthermore, the Jedi Concept will have Empathy as its Key Attribute. So not likely to start with 5 Wits (unless you choose appropriate species and choose Wits over Empathy). Empathy is the attribute used to actually make Force Power checks. Then being melee-oriented, and known for their Agility, I'd say that there would be very few Jedi built with real high Wits. Jedi need all 4 attributes to a degree!, So I am OK with that for now ;)

Telepathy is based upon the exact same use in the Saga Edition. It is pretty limited (and I have hardly EVER seen it used in a game). The contact off-world is only for those you know well - I made that clearer. With the skill use it is very basic thoughts, like 'Help', 'Hungry', 'Not hostile'. There will be a power allowing for proper telepathy, but if you think, I am happy to move this from the skill to a Power.