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Quorlox
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Additional skill levels seem underwhelming

Sun 19 Sep 2021, 18:19

It seems like increasing skill levels isn't very rewarding. Each level provides an additional d6, but that doesn't increase success very much if the character already has a reasonable dice pool. Am I missing something, e.g., levels as pre-reqs for something?
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Additional skill levels seem underwhelming

Sun 19 Sep 2021, 18:32

What is a reasonable dice pool and how do you get that without skill levels? For weapons there is a weapon talent that gives you +1 and later on a d8 artifact dice, but in combat, you really need all the dice you can get. I can admit that it is a little bit expensive for the higher skill levels, but another die also increase your chances to get more than one success.
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Quorlox
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Re: Additional skill levels seem underwhelming

Sun 19 Sep 2021, 18:39

Talents seem worthwhile because they give other perks as well. And I agree that without some skill levels, it's difficult to have a reasonable dice pool, but most characters begin the game with a reasonable dice pool in their area(s) of expertise. It's after that it seems underwhelming to keep increasing a skill instead of advancing a talent or getting a new talent.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Additional skill levels seem underwhelming

Sun 19 Sep 2021, 18:51

Talents seem worthwhile because they give other perks as well. And I agree that without some skill levels, it's difficult to have a reasonable dice pool, but most characters begin the game with a reasonable dice pool in their area(s) of expertise. It's after that it seems underwhelming to keep increasing a skill instead of advancing a talent or getting a new talent.
Sure that might be true. I have players that have both four and five in some combat skills and that is really, really good, but sure they got the weapon talent for the weapon that they fight with first. But eventually, after they have acquired some talents, it is worth it to buy another talent because it is cheaper, a talent that they might never use? My players have the weapon talents of their main weapon and among themselves they have some of the most important survival talents. When they get XP nowadays, they don't just buy another talent that they will not use, they rather save the XP. FbL isn't a game where you have 4 or 5 in a lot of skills, perhaps you have it in one.

I saw a house rule somewhere (maybe on the forum or on the discord) that linked all the general talents to a skill and added a pre-requisite of skill rank 3 in the skill in order to take the talent rank 2 and skill rank 3 in order to take talent rank 3. That is something that I might use in my next campaign.
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Quorlox
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Re: Additional skill levels seem underwhelming

Sun 19 Sep 2021, 21:25

I'd actually expected talents to be dependent to skills more than they are because that's common in other games for these types of things, so maybe I'll use that house rule.
 
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Konungr
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Re: Additional skill levels seem underwhelming

Mon 20 Sep 2021, 02:34

What you are missing is that skill dice cannot hurt you and are thus the most valuable dice in the game.

Attribute dice have the potential to hurt and even break you when you push the dice. Equipment dice can destroy your valuable equipment. But skill dice? No. All they do is help. And the more Skill dice you have compared to the rest of your dice pool the least risk you have pushing that roll as often as possible.
 
Farydia
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Re: Additional skill levels seem underwhelming

Mon 20 Sep 2021, 12:36

What you are missing is that skill dice cannot hurt you and are thus the most valuable dice in the game.

Attribute dice have the potential to hurt and even break you when you push the dice. Equipment dice can destroy your valuable equipment. But skill dice? No. All they do is help. And the more Skill dice you have compared to the rest of your dice pool the least risk you have pushing that roll as often as possible.
And additionally: Skill dice don't go away when you are injured!
 
JohanR
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Re: Additional skill levels seem underwhelming

Tue 21 Sep 2021, 16:24

What you are missing is that skill dice cannot hurt you and are thus the most valuable dice in the game.
And additionally: Skill dice don't go away when you are injured!
Yes, while these statements are correct. They are kind of moot as this discussion is talents vs skills, and talents also lets you roll additional "skill" and artifact dice, that also cannot be damaged.

Trying to evaluate these:
A d8 is worth 3 d6 if you only count the average amount of "hits". (4/8 = 3/6)
A d8 is worth ~2.6 d6 if you if you only count your chances of scoring at least one "hit". (3/8 ≈ 1-(5/6)^2,57788)
Just for this argument, lets simplify and say that a d8 is worth around 2.75 regular d6 dice.

15 xp in a skill at zero gives you:
2d6 dice.
Each die then costs you: 7.5 xp.

30 xp in a skill at zero gives you:
3d6 dice.
Each die then costs you: 10 xp.

50 xp in a skill at zero gives you:
4d6 dice.
Each die then costs you: 12.5 xp.

18 xp in talents at zero gives you:
1d6 + 1d8 specialized skill dice. (Simplified as 3.75 dice)
Each die then costs you: 4.8 xp.
These dice are NOT as valuable as regular dice, their exact worth is up to the player.
But if worth lets say around half, which is kind of reasonable (as you also get a nice talent perk), then their cost would still be less than 10 xp.

So order of gaining things should probably be something like skill level to 1, then talent up to 3, and first then other talents or skill increases.

If you don't like that "everyone" always will go for talents first, then I actually think that the proposed house rule is the simplest way to solve this, you just need a list of what feats belong together with what skills.. and you should also tell this to your players before they create their characters, as this can severely mess up their character progress plans. This rule will also slow down character progress a bit, but that is probably only a good thing.
A second way is to change the cost of skills and talents.
A third way is to house rule that you loose the +1 modifier from talents when you receive the d8 die (up to you if this then also should apply to "horseback fighter" as they are different bonuses).
Last edited by JohanR on Tue 21 Sep 2021, 19:09, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Additional skill levels seem underwhelming

Tue 21 Sep 2021, 17:04

Over at the discord someone put together this table
ambidextrous > melee
axe fighter > melee
berserker > endurance
bowyer > crafting
brawler > might
builder > crafting
chef > healing
cold blooded > insight
defender > might
dragon slayer > animal handling
executioner > insight
fast footwork > move
fast shooter > marksmanship
fearless > insight
firm grip > melee
fisher > survival
hammer fighter > melee
herbalist > survival or healing
horseback fighter > animal handling
incorruptible > insight
knife fighter > melee or stealth
lightning fast > move
lockpicker > sleight of hand
lucky > endurance
master of the hunt > survival
melee charge > might or move
pack rat > might or endurance
pain resistant > endurance
pathfinder > scouting or survival
poisoner > healing or crafting
quartermaster > survival or scouting
quickdraw > melee or sleight of hand
sailor > survival
sharpshooter > marksmanship
sharp tongue > performance or manipulation
shield fighter > melee or might
sixth sense > scouting
smith > crafting
spear fighter > melee
steady feet > move
sword fighter > melee
tailor > crafting
tanner > crafting
threatening > manipulation or might
throwing arm > marksmanship
wanderer > endurance

Talent rank 1 requires 1 skill point
Talent rank 2 requires 3 skill points
Talent rank 3 requires 5 skill points
Profession talents doesn't have any requirement.
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Konungr
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Re: Additional skill levels seem underwhelming

Wed 22 Sep 2021, 03:32

The bonus dice and artifact dice are valid arguments. But they are conditional. Anything related to Sword mastery requires a sword and equipment breaks. Melee dice are not conditional. Every melee skill dice will apply to every melee roll forever. No mater what equipment you have or what you are trying to do with it.

I am not discounting the value of talents. Talents are great. But people undervalue skills. Mostly, I think, because they don't look flashy or exciting. But they are your bread and butter. They do all the hard work all the time. They are absolutely not underwhelming.

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