Bercilak
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Slavery in Ravenland

Wed 29 Jan 2020, 03:08

So, slavery seems to be a pretty big part of Ravenland. The Rust Church takes slaves as sacrifices. A slaver's guild exists in Grindbone. But there's not much mentioned about the idea of slavery elsewhere in the books aside from some information on how orcs treat slaves. 

So, a couple of questions:
1. How do different kin view slavery? Both the dwarves and elves have historically used orcs as slaves. What about slaves of other races? Do kin enslave their own kind? 
2. What is the monetary value of a slave? Grindbone, in particular, seems to have an economy based on slave trading. So how much money are they getting for their slaves? (I ask knowing that my players are likely to make choices based on this knowledge--buying vast numbers of slaves to keep up their holding or to act as "mine-detectors" in dungeons if the price is too low. Or starting to capture every kin they encounter and selling them as slaves if the value is too high.) 

Thoughts? How have you handled slaves in your games? 
--Berc
 
Spat
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Re: Slavery in Ravenland

Wed 29 Jan 2020, 10:28

Slavery usually obeys precise rules to avoid that anybody capturing you in the street could sell you as a slave. Such a society would just collapse.
For example for the Romans, a slave was a person convicted of serious felony who was deprived of civil rights, and therefore could possibly be used as a slave. Or prisoners of war.
A legal authority would pronounce the sentence. Same in the Middle Ages, you could become slave if you didn't pay taxes, "tax slavery", but a local lord would decide it, and possibly for a given duration.

I would consider that only the local lords (Rust Brothers, or chief of clan, etc) can decide to sentence someone to slavery. The PC would become wanted criminals if they intend to sell slaves without authorization. And I don't intend to run a game based on "finding slaves". As a matter of fact, a local lord cannot accept that someone abducts one of his relatives and sell it in another part of the Ravenland. 

Also, to be able to morally justify slavery, a slave has to be considered as inferior, so I would say that some races based on clanic organisation (dwarves, elves) would accept only orcs or maybe humans as slave. Humans have shown a great mental flexibility to find their brothers as inferiors, so I would say no such limit applies for the Rust Brother.
 
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Ebrim
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Re: Slavery in Ravenland

Wed 29 Jan 2020, 17:32

So slaves exist but they probably aren't super common and would be more akin to the Roman or Nordic model than anything else. That is, if you're particularly rich you might have a slave or two. The Rust Brothers have their own very specific reasons for wanting slaves. But aside perhaps for very intensive labor operations (probably mining/quarrying) you're not likely to find much demand for slaves aside from the Rust Brothers. It's possible some coastal settlements might use slaves to crew galleys but these are all so small scale that there's unlikely to very much of that. I imagine the practice is probably pretty generally frowned upon and anyone engaged in it treated with suspicion at best.

If slavery is more common anywhere I'd expect we'll see more of it when we get the Alderland expansion.
 
Mr Oldtimer
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Re: Slavery in Ravenland

Wed 29 Jan 2020, 23:40

Considering the size and wealth of the known settlements, the lack of government and regulations (other than in specific settlements of orcs, elfs and dwarfs), I find it likely all sorts of slavery is possible, though not very common. There might be the occasional self proclaimed lord with a taste for cheap labor, the settlement near an abandoned dwarf mine who wants to get the mining operations going again but don't want to risk their own people and of course the Rust brothers. It's pretty much set up for "if you want to involve slavery in your plot, here's an option for you. If you don't want it, leave it be..." 
In my campaign slavery is not illegal since the only law and law enforcement is what's made up by the elder of any settlement or the respective churches/faiths. Well, and the dwarves/elfs/orcs have their own societies. Even though it's not illegal, it's frown upon by most and most settlements have problems enough getting by, they would never use their hard earned money on slaves, getting more mouths to feed. On the other hand, there are a few wealthy lords, people who have risen to power, not because of heritage or service to any ruler, but by their ruthlessness and their power to take what they want. They might find it in their right to keep slaves. However, the only place where slaves are bought or sold in any numbers are, in my campaign, Grindbone.
 
Bercilak
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Re: Slavery in Ravenland

Thu 30 Jan 2020, 02:35

Thanks for the comments. I, too, don't want to run a game where the PCs are slavers , but the setting does present the option,and slavery seems relatively widespread. I also agree that the post-apocalyptic fantasy vibe suggests that there isn't much central authority to regulate anything, so it has almost become clannish,where anyone not part of my clan is fair game. Whether or not slavery is widespread around Ravenland and regardless of who enslaves whom, slavery seems very important to Grindbone.

So my more important question is about the value of a slave. My PCs are in Grindbone and negotiating to offload some of their recently found treasure with a traveling merchant. He had come to Grindbone to purchase slaves and is reluctant to part with his money for a bauble when his backers want slaves. So, how much money is he likely to have to make purchases? For being such a vital part of the Grindbone economy, I'm surprised there aren't any details about prices.
 
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Arnold
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Re: Slavery in Ravenland

Thu 30 Jan 2020, 08:21

The orcs have prisoners of other kin to learn them smithing and knowlegde. For me, it seems the orcs have slaves themself.
 
Mr Oldtimer
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Re: Slavery in Ravenland

Thu 30 Jan 2020, 12:16

The value of a slave. Sounds horrible, but here goes. I’d say a slave would be considered a beast of burden, rather than an employee. I’d like for the slavers to think of the price for an average slave to be more worth than a donkey, but less than a good horse. So, ranging from 6 silver to 8 gold according to the listed price. Also, it must be possible to break even, compared to hire labor sooner or later. Hired unskilled labor is approximately 3 copper a day. This includes food and shelter, which the slaves would also need. The slaves would not get as good food or lodging though. Let’s say the cost for slaves is 1 copper a day, provided you have the resourses to feed them yourself (farmlands, hunting, fishing) and don’t need to buy food to feed them. So, paying 6 gold for a slave, it would take about 300 days, nearly a year, till the ”investment” starts to pay off, compared to hirelings. Sounds ok. So the price could be 4-6 gold for ordinary workers. Skilled, beautiful or tough slaves could be even more expensive.
I’d also rule a slave works half as hard as a hireling, in effect doubling that cost and taking 1-2 years before break even compared to hirelings.

Ok, so 4-6 gold per slave. Wow, why doesn’t everyone starts kidnapping other people to sell? Well, first off, it’s not something people would like about you and you’d quite soon get a reputation, rendering you a paria in every settlement. Also, in my campaign, Grindbone is pretty much the only place where buying/selling slaves is common. If you want to sell slaves there, you have to pay the slavers guild to get the permission (you don’t want to anger them, or you’ll most likley be up for sale yourself pretty soon). You also have to pay to hire a spot at the market, which is the only place you’re allowed to sell at. If you lack the skills yourself you have to hire a craftsman to groom your slaves, making them look pretty/healthy before sale. (Now, there’s a new career option for a craftsman. Slave groomer.) You might need to pay the local apothecary for drugs to keep your merchandise dosile. You might need to pay rent for place in a pen or the slaves pit when in Grindbone. And guards. Lastly, you have to pay tithes to the Rust brothers for the church to sanction your buisness. These fees would be like 75-85% of the sales price. Remember you’ll also have to feed the slaves from capture till they’re sold, 1 copper a day. Suddenly, the trade of a slaver is much work for a quite modest net profit.

Any thought?
 
Bercilak
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Re: Slavery in Ravenland

Fri 31 Jan 2020, 00:41

That's a great answer, Mr Oldtimer. Thank you. 

I was thinking somewhere around 5g as a value, but didn't have much to base it on, so I appreciate the way you thought through that problem. Your point about the oddity of Grindbone is well taken. I think that's what I will use--that slavery exists in the world, but is typically the domain of the most wealthy or most powerful. Grindbone exists at the whim of rich lords and they jealously protect their own trade, thus discouraging slave trade as a profession by the PCs. 

Thanks again.
--Berc
 
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Brior
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Re: Slavery in Ravenland

Fri 31 Jan 2020, 18:59

Many interesting views here. Just a tip that might be useful if you want to play a slaver. I got this book from a friend, a mock roman slavers manual, based upon what different romans actually have written on slavery and slaves. It's more about owning and managing slaves than catching and selling them, but might still be an inspiration.

Image
 
Simpa
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Re: Slavery in Ravenland

Fri 31 Jan 2020, 20:29

I made slavery very uncommon, and much confied to Grindbone. Now my players will probably never go there as "WHY should we go there and what could we possibly gain from it" (one of the players also have a backstory there) so I wont need to but I have thought of it. One of the great things with FL, you dont have to go there. I think it is quite amusig that they have a theives and slavers guild. Steal from who? The 50 "civilists". No, I think the guilds names are from a Golden age when there actually were i theives guild in (pre)Grindbone. So now the guilds are both mostley robbers and plunderers, and then and then - slavers. Part of the conflict is the slavers wanting to get the monopoly of slavetrading back now when the bloodmists dissaperance have made it a plausible option again! Thanks for the slave-thoughts, it made wonder if not pushing some slaves into the action!

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