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Vader
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Re: Sentry gun in Hope's Last Day

Sat 13 Jun 2020, 22:28

"Right next to...?" How do you figure? The movie gives no information, so for all we know, it could be a thousand miles away!

How many survey teams does the colony support? Twenty? How finely can twenty survey trucks comb a fifty-mile radius over severely broken terrain in 20 years? 100 miles? 200?
When you're at 500 miles, you're beginning to get fairly well thinned out. 1000 miles out, and they still wouldn't have found it in a hundred years... unless someone told them exactly where to go look.
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S.M
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Re: Sentry gun in Hope's Last Day

Sun 14 Jun 2020, 01:20

Yeah I'm not sure why anyone would think the Derelict was "right next to" the colony. Or even close to it.
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: Sentry gun in Hope's Last Day

Sun 14 Jun 2020, 08:34

I think the fact that you can find an M41A Pulse Rifle and an M240 Incinerator unit in the sub-levels indicate that the militia had access to military hardware, at least.

So one solitary sentry gun isn't completely out of the realm of possibility, I'd say.

Also, if you listen to Hudson's rant on the dropship about their weapons, I'd argue that Pulse Rifles and Sentry guns are at the lowest rung of what the Colonial Marines have access to, so giving that to militia units seems reasonable. Especially since the description in the rulebook specifically stated "but if you're a civilian, good luck getting a permit to own one." That indicates that the militia on LV-426 had licence to own military hardware.

You can argue the how's and why's forever since there's no actual laws written in the rulebook.

But there are plenty of theoretical dangers to a completely unarmed colony that would be easily fixed by allowing a milita (or police force) to have access to weapons while the rest of the population doesn't.
Examples are: insurrections, riots, pirates, rival corporations, rival nations, unknown alien threats and the constant threat of someone going stir-crazy and trying to murder everyone.
As someone pointed out earlier, these weapons would be locked in the armory. They wouldn't be available to everyone. They'd have to be signed in and signed out.


As for legality of automatic weapons... I live in Sweden and we have some pretty strict gun laws.
And I still know some people who own automatic weapons.
 
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Vader
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Re: Sentry gun in Hope's Last Day

Sun 14 Jun 2020, 11:39

But that’s precisely my point: according to the game and the adventure, the colonists did have access to such hardware, with sentry guns, pulse rifles, and whatnot.
The information we get from the actual movie does not support such an assumption, as per the previous discussion.

I, along with some others, and our games, stick with the movie. Others are free to make other choices. And as you illustrate, one can find arguments to justify either position.
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Vindictus
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Re: Sentry gun in Hope's Last Day

Sun 14 Jun 2020, 12:37

I'd argue that Pulse Rifles and Sentry guns are at the lowest rung of what the Colonial Marines have access to

current military tech including pulse rifles is pretty off limits to civilians. the rulebook even says as much.

at least the fully automatic versions with explosive rounds and grenade launchers.

its entirely plausible for a civilian version to exist. same goes with sentry guns. I would probably reduce the sentry gun stats by -1/-1 to reflect its an outdated weapon or a civilian version.

A current generation sentry gun is a little out of place in the scenario. But an outdated sentry gun is fine.
 
S.M
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Re: Sentry gun in Hope's Last Day

Tue 16 Jun 2020, 04:24

I know the game repurposes/ rewrites some names, events and one character from River of Pain, but I don't know if it mentions the marine squad from that book?

Maybe someone already mentioned it but it's an obvious source of armaments - for what it's worth.
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: Sentry gun in Hope's Last Day

Wed 17 Jun 2020, 15:56

But that’s precisely my point: according to the game and the adventure, the colonists did have access to such hardware, with sentry guns, pulse rifles, and whatnot.
The information we get from the actual movie does not support such an assumption, as per the previous discussion.

I, along with some others, and our games, stick with the movie. Others are free to make other choices. And as you illustrate, one can find arguments to justify either position.
To be picky here... the movie doesn't state either way.

Apone says "Sir, you copying this? Looks like hits from small arms fire... uuuh, with some explosives damage. It's probably seismic survey charges."

That's ALL the movie tells us. Sgt. Apone's hasty on the spot analysis of the damages right inside the entrance.

That is the only mention of the colonist's defensive capabilities we hear of.

Now, the marines entered through the north lock, and proceeded southward (on both first and second floor).
Then Gorman, Burke, Ripley and Bishop entered through the south lock.
Nobody went to the sublevels.

So... what do we know from the film?

1: There was small arms fire. That includes assault rifles, so the M41 is certainly possible.
2: There were explosions. Apone didn't specifically identify them (which would be hard to do without thorough analysis) so just guessed at seismic charges.
3: Nobody goes down to the sublevels during the movie. So there's no evidence to existence or non-existence of the sentry gun.

Keeping in mind that the "securing" of the building seemed rushed and sloppy (Gorman sends his troops through one part of the entire complex and decides it's safe) and the fact that they're not really spending all that long in there before they find the colonists PDT's, it's very possible that there's a Sentry Gun and an M41 puls rifle lying in the sublevels.

Furthermore, the Sentry Gun would most likely have been destroyed by the Aliens before the Marines arrive, since it's been several days and the Aliens have been back and forth several times to seemingly remove all the bodies from the area. They would have discovered the Sentry gun before that and since it wasn't in a sealed area, the Aliens could very well have figured out how to bypass it and smash it to pieces. (or just knock it over, either way, disabling it)

Point is, the one phrase of "looks like small arms fire... with some explosives damage, probably seismic charges" is hardly enough to go on for making a rock-solid argument that there wasn't a single piece of military hardware on the colony.
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: Sentry gun in Hope's Last Day

Wed 17 Jun 2020, 16:01

I'd argue that Pulse Rifles and Sentry guns are at the lowest rung of what the Colonial Marines have access to

current military tech including pulse rifles is pretty off limits to civilians. the rulebook even says as much.

at least the fully automatic versions with explosive rounds and grenade launchers.

its entirely plausible for a civilian version to exist. same goes with sentry guns. I would probably reduce the sentry gun stats by -1/-1 to reflect its an outdated weapon or a civilian version.

A current generation sentry gun is a little out of place in the scenario. But an outdated sentry gun is fine.
They had a militia.

The definition of militia includes such things as the Swedish and Danish home-guard.

These have access to assault rifles, machineguns, hand grenades, rocket launchers and military vehicles.

Do not get hung up on the current popular American definition of militia as a bunch of civilians playing soldiers. The National Guard is also a milita force... and it's got bloody tanks and airplanes.

If there was a militia on Hadley's Hope, I'd say they could very well have access to at least one M41 Pulse Rifle and one Sentry Gun. It's not out of the realms of possibility.

That doesn't mean they were constantly running around with guns... it just meant that they had an armory with armaments that could be collected by the militia members in the case of a threat to the colony.
 
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Vader
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Re: Sentry gun in Hope's Last Day

Wed 17 Jun 2020, 16:19

But that’s precisely my point: according to the game and the adventure, the colonists did have access to such hardware, with sentry guns, pulse rifles, and whatnot.
The information we get from the actual movie does not support such an assumption, as per the previous discussion.

I, along with some others, and our games, stick with the movie. Others are free to make other choices. And as you illustrate, one can find arguments to justify either position.
To be picky here... the movie doesn't state either way.
.
Correct. And omission in itself doesn't prove absence. All I say is that "the information we get from the actual movie does not support such an assumption".
That of course also means that there is nothing in the movie to justify stating that they had a militia as a categorical fact, either.

But one might also argue that Apone is led to conclude that the explosive damage stems from seismic survey charges simply on the basis of comprehensive, factual knowledge about what the colony actually had and had not available in terms of explosives - knowledge that reasonably would have been part of any background briefing on the colony the Company would provide the Marines with, in turn based on highly exhaustive information on what the Company had and hadn't shipped to the colony in their own transports; something they obviously would be able to account for down to the last gram.

In which case the main gist of the information provided in the movie still would point towards that IED's indeed were the only kind of explosive ordnance available to the colony. Which would also by extension indicate the absence of military-grade weapons or a formalised militia.

.
Nobody went to the sublevels.
.
Doesn't the tunnel to the atmosphere processing plant run underground? Wouldn't that necessitate that they go to the sub-levels to emplace the sentry guns and weld the door shut?
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Oddball_E8
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Re: Sentry gun in Hope's Last Day

Fri 19 Jun 2020, 11:02

.
Correct. And omission in itself doesn't prove absence. All I say is that "the information we get from the actual movie does not support such an assumption".
That of course also means that there is nothing in the movie to justify stating that they had a militia as a categorical fact, either.

But one might also argue that Apone is led to conclude that the explosive damage stems from seismic survey charges simply on the basis of comprehensive, factual knowledge about what the colony actually had and had not available in terms of explosives - knowledge that reasonably would have been part of any background briefing on the colony the Company would provide the Marines with, in turn based on highly exhaustive information on what the Company had and hadn't shipped to the colony in their own transports; something they obviously would be able to account for down to the last gram.

In which case the main gist of the information provided in the movie still would point towards that IED's indeed were the only kind of explosive ordnance available to the colony. Which would also by extension indicate the absence of military-grade weapons or a formalised militia.
Considering how sloppy the rest of the military operation was and the fact that the company handpicked an inexperienced commander for the mission, it's entirely feasible that they didn't exactly send an exhaustive information brief on the military capabilities of the colony militia.

I mean, we're both just making wildly speculative assumptions here, but the fact that you're quoting the movie as some sort of proof is hardly a convincing argument for there not being one sentry gun and one pulse rifle on the entire colony.

Furthermore, it's pretty obvious what the marine's attitude towards colonists in general were from the dialogue in the movie. "t's a rescue mission, you'll love it. There's some juicy colonists' daughters we have to rescue from their virginity. Heh!"
Hardly the words of someone who holds colonists in high esteem.

With that in mind, the assumption of Apone that it was "probably survey charges" is easily dismissed.


However... this discussion is kinda pointless.

Can the players use the sentry gun? No. It's set up remotely just like the one by the marines, so they can't really use it unless the GM decides that he wants to give them the remote control. And even then, it's hardly that useful.
Can the players use the M41 Pulse Rifle and the Incinerator unit?
Sure, but it has a heavy toll in stress from going down into the sublevels, and there are no reloads for either of them.
So it hardly makes a difference in the game, other than to show that whatever killed all the colonists didn't get dissuaded by even military weaponry.

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