S.M
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Re: Stellar type data - real world - near stars

Sun 09 Feb 2020, 01:19

What are you supposted to do in the game
Survive, I imagine.
 
Bengt Petter
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Re: Stellar type data - real world - near stars

Sun 09 Feb 2020, 01:29

What are you supposted to do in the game
Survive, I imagine.
The game is a lot more specific than that. Surviving is not a career path. And, as I said, the starmap is also a way of describing what to do in the game.
 
S.M
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Re: Stellar type data - real world - near stars

Mon 10 Feb 2020, 07:01

Given the circumstances, surviving is the best career path.  ;)

Not sure how the starmap describes what to do.
 
Bengt Petter
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Re: Stellar type data - real world - near stars

Mon 10 Feb 2020, 11:06

Given the circumstances, surviving is the best career path.  ;)

Not sure how the starmap describes what to do.
Let’s assume you are not joking. Why are there maps in roleplaying games? That’s really a relevant question here. And it’s quite on topic.

Just to make the discussion more interesting, I suggest that you in your answer consider what it means that Alien RPG (like all Year Zero games) is built on a mix of concepts from both various indiegames and old school games. It matters to both the career paths and the how starmaps can be used in the game. If you don’t know any of that stuff (come on, be honest), that’s probably why you see things the way you do. If you actually know what I’m talking about, we can have a more conceptual discussion and talk about the starmap from a game point of view. Because that’s really my point here: the map is a game tool, not just nice looking canon material.

I’ll give a really good clue: hexcrawl. It’s a concept that is a conceptual core in the Year Zero line. This is a good description of hexcrawl: https://www.runagame.net/2014/03/the-hex-crawl.html?m=1

Of course you can say ”hey dude, I don’t care”, but then you aren’t interested in what the Alien RPG really is. It’s something more than a game adaption of a big movie brand. To agree on that is a good start.
 
S.M
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Re: Stellar type data - real world - near stars

Tue 11 Feb 2020, 01:47

I have no idea about anything you just said.

A map shows you where stuff is; not sure how it describes what to do.  More how to get there.

But maybe it's because I haven't RPGed in at least 25 years that 'I'm not interested in what Alien is about'...
 
Bengt Petter
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Re: Stellar type data - real world - near stars

Sun 16 Feb 2020, 11:56

Of course, it makes sense that the Alien RPG attracts people who are mainly interested in the Alien brand. That’s just fine to me. Knowing the lore, also the parts that are outside the movies, is important. You can develop a game by knowing the lore in detail.

However, the Alien RPG isn’t just about getting the lore details correct. It’s also a game, actually a very specific one. All the Year Zero games are strongly influenced by Apocalypse World, an American indiegame made by Vincent Baker. That’s not just my personal opinion, the creators of the game have talked about that in public. And you only need to read the Wikipedia article about Apocalypse World to see the similarities between Mutant Year Zero and Apocalypse World. Those games are very similar.

You can say a lot about what indiegames have brought to the gaming industry the past 10-15 years or so. But if I should just mention one thing (that is most relevant here), it would be that most indiegames does something very specific. You usually can’t just do what ever you like in the game. Instead you do very certain things and there are specific rules for that. Baker, as I mentioned above, has done several very specific games. If you read the Wikipedia article about him, you can see what his other games are about. Some of them are quite bizarre (like ”kill puppies for satan”).

Why is all that even relevant when we are talking about a star map? As I said in a previous post, there are three career paths in the Alien RPG. Those are all quite indie: it’s something specific you do. And the specifics are supported by a lot of rules. And the rules are supporting the setting. The upcoming supplements will be about the career paths (and not about, for example, spaceships or vehicles, even though stuff like that will probably be included). What you actually DO in the game is specific, not general. The game designers have made their own interpration of the Alien universe (even though with corporate brand blessing from Fox).

So if you really want to grasp what the game (and not just the entire franchise) is about, look at the career paths. They are the core of the game. They tell you what to do - just like in most indiegames or indie influenced games. Surviving is for sure important in this game, but it’s not a career path. As I said, those are more specific.

Since most indiegames are very limited in what you are supposed to do, you only put stuff in the game if it really matters to what you are supposed to do in the game. A map isn’t there just because it looks nice. It’s a game tool, and as such, it should add something to the three career paths (or group concepts as I said when I introduced the term in Swedish, although there have allways been group concepts in roleplaying games, but they are often not explicitly described). You could say that what they are supposed to do is limited by the map. Maybe they might go to places outside the map, but, as I said, that could be a conceptual thing. You would have to develop the map (add more mapps or detail some known areas further), perhaps through some new game mechanic. Some kind of secret corporate maps would be my suggestion, simply because it would make sense.

I also mentioned the hexcrawl. It’s something in between old school and indie. And it gives you a hint of what to do with a map in a game. It points out locations that are (or at least could be) important. And important in this case should mean important to the three career paths - the marines, the colonists and the truckers. They are the people doing things in this game (at least so far). That’s why I want to add a fourth career path - the explorers. They are already there in the franchise, and they would by definition expand the starmap. I think that would be a cool thing, and for sure very much in line with the lore.

Maybe I needed to explain all this. After all, we are talking about a map in a game. I want to discuss what the map actually means in the Alien RPG specifically. This is a forum for that game (obviously). And it isn’t just any game, it’s a game with strong indie influences and some old school style hex crawl. What does that mean to the map?

I have noticed that there sometimes are clashes between brand fans and game fans (in the Alien case, I’m both, but I wouldn’t have been here if it wasn’t a Swedish game). We approach things differently. I wrote this post to bridge that gap.

Vincent Baker on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Baker

(A sidenote to this: Fria Ligan is standing on the shoulders of others. If they didn’t, their games wouldn’t look like they do. They are a bit like Steve Jobs and Apple in that regard: developing and promoting concepts created by others. Vincent Baker and several other indie creators should be invited to many release parties... But that can be discussed somewhere else.)
 
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aramis
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Re: Stellar type data - real world - near stars

Thu 20 Feb 2020, 00:21

A map shows you where stuff is; not sure how it describes what to do.  More how to get there.
In a classic sandbox mode, the map is there to provide choices to the players, and the GM marks places on it that he's got prepped to some degree or another.

The nature of what's on the map sets some of the expectations.

Let's take an example from a videogame... it's a close relative to the classic sandbox.

At start, you see a map of a village. 5 buildings. there's a cave. You have 3 fixed monsters, and random monsters in the cave. Not much to do... but, the cave has an exit. Each time you hit a bottleneck, once you overcome it, more map reveals. And in a couple cases (in later games in the line), old things on the map change.

in a classic TT RPG sandbox, the GM adds stuff to a map to say, "Here there are things to do"... at no point need the GM say, "Go here, do this"... provided the GM is willing to provide at least some semblance of player choice in what to explore. It wasn't uncommon in the 80's to hear a GM say, "I'm not ready for that location yet, so let's end session here" or to have them stall with faux-random "random encounters." (Yep. I've done both.)

The thing is, the map was the players interface with the setting in the GM's head (and notes). 
And it wasn't static, either. It was ever changing, as the players cause the GM to create more. And the GM may add things by telling the players, "The NPC mentions X, which is here, and a monster having taken up residence last [time unit]"....

Bengt seems fixated on an underlying story;  I'm all for letting illusion of story mesh with pareidolia to create the illusion of an underlying story. As in, if the players think X is part of a conspiracy, then add the conspiracy. Listen to the players and steal from them to let their deductions be as valid as sensibility allows.

Both can be map linked. Bengt seems focused on the map setting the bounds of play; I'm all for, "when play moves to the edge, add more map" approach.
—————————————————————————
Smith & Wesson: the original point and click interface...
 
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ExileInParadise
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Re: Stellar type data - real world - near stars

Sat 15 May 2021, 07:34

I've spent the last couple of days correcting the ALIEN RPG starmaps for my own use.

The primary goal was to restore the 3D coordinates for things using Winchell Chung's HabHYG catalog as a baseline.

The main "errors" (probably intentional) that I've found are the KOI references generally point to systems that are far more than 15pc / 50ly from Sol.

These KOI references were likely pulled from the Project Prometheus web list from the movie tie-in, then mapped over existing (but boring) legit stars.

It's going to take a while, if ever, to recover the original stars that were mapped over.

I've also merged the Leading Edge Games star system info where those names were re-used in Free League's RPG, as well as the new Colonial Marines Operations Manual map info.

Along the way I've learned a lot about the map and the data it references as well as what "creative liberties" were taken.

Unfortunately, I am not sure if I can / should share the resulting data here or anywhere.

But, I can confirm that the Open Exoplanet Catalog mentioned elsewhere in this thread, and the original Winchell Chung compiled data will get you more than 90% of the map corrected.
We live, as we dream -- alone. ~ Joseph Conrad
 
FenGiddel
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Re: Stellar type data - real world - near stars

Sat 15 May 2021, 16:11

Someone mentioned “playing in the sandbox.” For what it’s worth, here’s a little riff on SM’s map I did to create the non-canon “Lucky 13” map. The end points are actually from a map I made of significant places Joseph Conrad traveled to as a seaman. Those points were overlaid over SM’s map and I added the Key. Great fun, as is reading how the ALIEN RPG map is used in gaming. I’m not a gamer but have loved Alien since 1979.
 
S.M
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Re: Stellar type data - real world - near stars

Tue 18 May 2021, 05:40

I could probably tell you some of the stars that were 'mapped over'.
Liberty Echo is HIP20968 for example.
Fiorina is GJ 2034.
Kellerat is GI853.
Wright-Aberra is HIP27887.
etcetera...

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