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Diego
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Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Tue 03 Dec 2019, 16:17

Less ignoring it more having to deal with the ramifications of aliens, the hive structure does sadly demand a certain level of adherence, turning these alien monstrosities into something which is sadly relatable, 'ants with sttitude'.

Actually the reverse is not true, that's the point of gene driving where you only allow the influence of Gene's for certain characteristics. It is of course pseudo science but the idea of an alpha template only filling in gaps necessary to flourish in particular environments is plausible (if improbable). A creature well adapted to one environment fails in another. Ergo the perfect organism steals its preys strength and becomes limitless in its versatility. If not the creature will suffer in one environment or another.

Also been genetically unique does not render you immune to pathogens, that's a fallacy brought out by incorrect scientific journals. Many diseases cross species and in fact don't care what you are. Second even if you are immune, spend enough time around a disease and eventually it will find a way in. Pathogens are horribly relentless that way. The privledge of microevolution when a new generation is born every 20 minutes.
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Vader
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Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Tue 03 Dec 2019, 17:04

Actually the reverse is not true, that's the point of gene driving where you only allow the influence of Gene's for certain characteristics. It is of course pseudo science but the idea of an alpha template only filling in gaps necessary to flourish in particular environments is plausible (if improbable). A creature well adapted to one environment fails in another. Ergo the perfect organism steals its preys strength and becomes limitless in its versatility. If not the creature will suffer in one environment or another.
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That'd be a bit hit or miss ... an Alien impregnating a creature in the Arctic would be better off with a polar bear than a human, but might not be in a position to pick and choose. And more importantly -- would not know which one to pick, even if it could. Likewise, once gestating in a host, the organism would not be able to "know" which traits to pick as optimal to the particular environment it's in, and which to leave behind.
Furthermore, any environmental adaptation would only benefit the "hatched" creature ... by this reasoning, the egg and Facehuger would perforce be potentially vulnerable to adverse environments -- and note that Ash's comment about "prolonged resistance to adverse environmental conditions" is regarding the Facehugger, not the creature that gestated inside Kane!

Myself, I rather believe the creature is designed with a general set of physical strengths and resiliences -- it is not very environment specific to be better off with a -40 - +120 degree C "comfort" range than +10 - +50, for instance ... which is what you'd be stuck with, if you took it from the human organism -- coupled with adaptation based on observation.
In my thinking, the Chestburster is able to make observations on where it is and what others if any already are there, and e.g. "choose" whether to mature into a "scout" (Big Chap, not Dog Alien type) or into a "warrior", to serve an established hive.
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Also been genetically unique does not render you immune to pathogens, that's a fallacy brought out by incorrect scientific journals. Many diseases cross species and in fact don't care what you are. Second even if you are immune, spend enough time around a disease and eventually it will find a way in. Pathogens are horribly relentless that way. The privledge of microevolution when a new generation is born every 20 minutes.
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True ... within the narrow confines of terrestrial biology, where all life is based on the exact same basic building blocks. Even the least related organisms on the planet still share some 10-20% of their DNA sequence -- that's from microbes, to plants, to insects, to mammals... Humans are e.g. genetically speaking 26% related to yeast.

Assume instead an entirely alien life form, that has exactly 0% of genes in common, and might not even have anything recognisable as DNA at all. Add then the possibility that its base chemistry doesn't even build on the same elements, and I'm beginning to find it difficult to see what a pathogen might have to gain in attacking such an organism in the first place. Sure, there are bacteria that break down rock and even metals ... but on the other hand, no alien would inherit an immune system able to ward off those bacteria from a human anyway...
Add to that the fact that the human immune system doesn't really develop from genes during gestation in the first place, rather largely from exposure to pathogens during childhood, and it seems to me that an alien would have little to gain from what it could inherit from a measly hoo-man...
- They're a bit like Facehuggers, aren't they?
- Face ... huggers?
- Yeah, you know. Alien.
- ...?
- The horror movie, Alien.
- There's a horror movie called Alien?? That's really offensive! No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
 
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Diego
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Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Tue 03 Dec 2019, 17:36

Hit or miss? Not really!

If a creature lives in an area probability dictates its adapted to that environment, if not it's either already extinct or going extinct. As for the facd hugger, it doesn't need to meet a specific environment, it needs to sit in an egg and spring out when needed. It's the xeno that needs to stalk, hunt and fight, needing a morphology to match the terrain. If the creature we have seen is what you are proposing is the defecto creature then there are half a dozen environments it will suck in. Aquatic, done for, high gravity, done for. The perfect organism is no longer perfect.

As for knowing which genes to pick. We are again assuming it has a gene driven template and takes only from its host certain qualities, which ones would be down to gms and how much body horror then want kn their games. Could be as simple as size and shape to fit the ecological niche.

And yes the line from ash was talking about the face hugger, but if you want the face hugger to be more tough than the alien that's your prerogative.

Oh and as to your comment about aliens been 0% related, you've fallen into your own argument. You've already stated that the creature hesitates inside carbon life and takes what nutrients it needs, so your alien is using the same elements. Paving a pathway for infection. Of course immunity is just one internal adaptation that I was suggesting the possibilities are more endless than that. Your also falling into the fallacy of doing everything from what the alien could get from humans when the entire point is that it can infect just about anything.

Last point I wanted to raise. If the alien takes nothing from its host, as you believe there is nothing yo gain, what is the point of the egg and the face hugger anyway? You've eliminated the entire point of the life cycle. There is no evolutionary point save from a narrative standpoint that its creepy. The alien may as well just eat people and poop out new aliens from its xeno-hole. Chomp chomp, poop, poop.
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aramis
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Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Tue 03 Dec 2019, 19:40

In re compatible DNA...
Several amino acids  are naturally occurring elsewhere... Glycine has been identified in a comet's coma.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... n-a-comet/

Ribose, the sugar which is modified to make DNA by adding a phosphate group, also occurs in space.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/rib ... meteorites
And it isn't the only sugar in space...
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019 ... 1907169116

The odds are quite good, given the anthropic principle, that DNA will be elsewhere in the universe. (Given the anthropic principle and that non-earth sources have multiple amino acids and ribose, it's highly likely.)

Now, with the two synthetic bases created recently, it's possible to have a 5-base or 6 base system... but those are not naturally occuring, don't replicate as easily, yada, yada... essentially, the 4 bases show a strong affinity, and the synthetics barely function.
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Vader
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Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Wed 04 Dec 2019, 13:53

Hit or miss? Not really!

If a creature lives in an area probability dictates its adapted to that environment, if not it's either already extinct or going extinct. As for the facd hugger, it doesn't need to meet a specific environment, it needs to sit in an egg and spring out when needed. It's the xeno that needs to stalk, hunt and fight, needing a morphology to match the terrain. If the creature we have seen is what you are proposing is the defecto creature then there are half a dozen environments it will suck in. Aquatic, done for, high gravity, done for. The perfect organism is no longer perfect.
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Yes, really!

Notwithstanding that we in Alien Resurrection get an idea of how well that basic morphology might do in water (I kinda doubt those swimming Aliens had gestated in dolphins, see...) ... so, not quite done for ... and how well that morphology, with its disproportionate physical strength, can cope in different gravity environments, we can only speculate about (or do you claim actual empirical knowledge?) ... say that we just as an extreme example mix the scenarios from Alien with that from The Thing:

The Antarctic-stranded face hugger in such a scenario might impregnate a human ... a husky ... a penguin ... the true apex predator of that environment, a leopard seal ... and that's about it.
Which one would make it the "perfect organism"? Humans suck in that environment without technology to enable survival; the penguin and leopard seal are perfectly adapted for life in that environment ... from a certain point of view ... but as for mobility on land, both suck hard ... that leaves the dog as the most reasonable compromise. However, there are far more penguins on Antarctica than huskies, so balance of probability is that your "perfect organism" ends up ... a penguin xenomorph. Congratulations, Dad.

No, it would need to be a fairly specific type of environment for the Facehugger to have a better-than-even chance to attach itself to the single absolutely most optimally adapted organism in that specific environment ... and even then, that specific adaptation may be very limited in other ways. Go just a few steps outside of the optimum, and all that adaptation may be for naught, leaving the "perfect organism" ... not-so-perfect, again.

So yes, on the whole -- pretty hit or miss, I'd have to say.
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As for knowing which genes to pick. We are again assuming it has a gene driven template and takes only from its host certain qualities, which ones would be down to gms and how much body horror then want kn their games. Could be as simple as size and shape to fit the ecological niche.
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I feel we're beginning to mix discussions a bit.

What we as GM's do at the gaming table and what we choose to incorporate and how, or not, is of course up to each one of us -- and, being entirely subjective anyway, not really a meaningful topic for discussion, in my mind.

This part of my question started off as an attempt to fathom Fria Ligan's intent vis-á-vis the "inherit traits" issue that Alien3 gave us, and that their "scout xenomorph" would seem to contradict.

We've since turned this into a discussion on speculative fiction -- what might the Alien's biology "actually" be? Could a mechanism of inherited host traits even be practically feasible, assuming it doesn't have a handy GM available to pick for it? That is a potentially interesting topic, as it can feed GM's with ideas to incorporate into their games.
This being the case, let's not try to turn tables and switch it over to a meta-level discussion about GM fiat. GM's will do what they will anyway.

We can just agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
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And yes the line from ash was talking about the face hugger, but if you want the face hugger to be more tough than the alien that's your prerogative.
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Um ... no?

I feel you're quoting me a bit out of context, here.
I'll remind you of the following exchange, where you present the line I quote about "prolonged resistance to adverse conditions" as evidence for that the concept of inherited traits is already in the original ALIEN, and I point out that the quote concerns the Facehugger, a creature that never gestated inside Kane, and hence can never have inherited any traits from him:
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  • Could you remind me where this is said? I recall Ash saying something to the effect of "prolonged resistance to adverse environmental conditions"
  • you just quoted the bit where he says how its adapted to our environment
  • any environmental adaptation would only benefit the "hatched" creature ... by this reasoning, the egg and Facehuger would perforce be potentially vulnerable to adverse environments -- and note that Ash's comment about "prolonged resistance to adverse environmental conditions" is regarding the Facehugger, not the creature that gestated inside Kane!
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As for the matter in question, what I'd actually say is that it makes sense for the egg, the Facehugger, and the final creature, to be similar on a cellular (or whatever analogue to cells it uses) level, and thus about equally tough.

Besides -- Ash's later comment, about the Alien being a "...Perfect. Organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility." This pertains obviously to the Alien such as we are encountering it in the movie. But the "inherit traits" mechanism would entail that the creature has no fixed structure. In that case, what is this "structural perfection" that Ash so admires?
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Oh and as to your comment about aliens been 0% related, you've fallen into your own argument. You've already stated that the creature hesitates inside carbon life and takes what nutrients it needs, so your alien is using the same elements. Paving a pathway for infection. Of course immunity is just one internal adaptation that I was suggesting the possibilities are more endless than that. Your also falling into the fallacy of doing everything from what the alien could get from humans when the entire point is that it can infect just about anything.
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Um ... no?

Nutrients, as chiefly in energy, not ready-made building blocks. There's a lot a parasitic organism could harvest from its host without necessarily needing to harvest its genetic traits, as well.
I'll remind you of what I actually did say earlier, once more:
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Two, the above holds true, even if the parasite's base chemistry is non-carbon based -- chemical energy is, after all, just energy, as long as it has some way to metabolise energy stored in whatever chemistry is available in its environment. The life form will need to store (or scrounge) the base raw material in order to generate the building blocks to grow and/or repair itself, but the energy it needs to keep going it can always get from its environment, whatever its base chemistry.
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For all we know, the Alien's enzymes might be able to break down proteins, not to amino acids, but to simple hydrocarbons and chemical elements, and then biosynthesise necessary structures from these..
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As long as the Alien's biochemistry can break down whatever it encounters -- right-twisted 4-base carbon chains, left-twisted 6-base carbon chains, linear silicone chains... -- to basic molecules and chemical elements that it can (a) oxidise, or whatever "burning" process it uses to extract energy for its organs, and (b) re-combine with elements either in internal storage or scrounged from the environment into building blocks to grow and to repair itself, then it doesn't matter what it's host is made of, or how its biology is designed.

In fact, come to think of it -- the "acid for blood" thing ... the highly corrosive blood might not only be a handy defence mechanism, but also a necessary reagent to metabolise a wide variety of fuels?
It would fit.

And as for path of infection ... one, if the creature is e.g. silicone based, what's there for e.g. a carbon based pathogen to infect? And two, regardless of base chemistry -- if the pathogen gets digested down to basic molecules ... how is it to infect anything at all in the first place?

If the host and the Alien share the same base chemistry, scrounging raw material for basic building blocks becomes easier, of course. However, if the premise is that the Alien digests whatever it ingests down to very basic molecules, there's not much risk of anything undesired being carried over.
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Last point I wanted to raise. If the alien takes nothing from its host, as you believe there is nothing yo gain, what is the point of the egg and the face hugger anyway? You've eliminated the entire point of the life cycle. There is no evolutionary point save from a narrative standpoint that its creepy. The alien may as well just eat people and poop out new aliens from its xeno-hole. Chomp chomp, poop, poop.
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That very narrative standpoint is actually the one single reason we've got ALIEN at all in the first place, so let's not disparage, denigrate, or deride overmuch ... no need to be crude, either.

But again, lest this devolves into just a meta-discussion, we need to rationalise it somehow. And as it happens, the whole Egg - Facehugger - Host - Chestburster life cycle is pretty similar to the egg - larva - cocoon - adult lifecycle of quite a lot of insects, parasitic or not. Which serves a fairly central point of being a valid reproductive cycle.

Beyond that ... what does any internal parasite get from its host? Food, mainly. Energy. Of course. As per the above. Quite a good point, right there.

But what does and Alien -- a biological weapon -- stand to gain besides that? Well ... a chance to infiltrate and spread, for instance. If the host re-integrates into its indigenous structure after having recovered from the Facehugger, after gestation is complete, the creature stands a fair chance to emerge right in the middle of where it wants to be. Also a fairly useful point.

So ... um ... no. I actually don't feel I've eliminated the point of the life cycle.

As for evolutionary points ... if the race that created the Alien felt they had created the weapon they wanted with the creature as it stands, I do not see that they necessarily want there to be any "evolutionary point" -- rather the opposite! If the creature is free to evolve with every potential host it meets, what's to say it doesn't suddenly evolve beyond the control of its creators...?
- They're a bit like Facehuggers, aren't they?
- Face ... huggers?
- Yeah, you know. Alien.
- ...?
- The horror movie, Alien.
- There's a horror movie called Alien?? That's really offensive! No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
 
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Diego
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Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Wed 04 Dec 2019, 19:49

Last point I wanted to raise. If the alien takes nothing from its host, as you believe there is nothing yo gain, what is the point of the egg and the face hugger anyway? You've eliminated the entire point of the life cycle. There is no evolutionary point save from a narrative standpoint that its creepy. The alien may as well just eat people and poop out new aliens from its xeno-hole. Chomp chomp, poop, poop.
That very narrative standpoint is actually the one single reason we've got ALIEN at all in the first place, so let's not disparage, denigrate, or deride overmuch ... no need to be crude, either.
I don't mind having long conversations with people, however if it's got to the point where you can't see I was just trying to add a little humor and have a laugh with you, I'm out. All the best.
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Riggswolfe
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Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Wed 04 Dec 2019, 22:24

Ok, first off about the Xenomorph bit. The reference materials and the EU have "fixed" this a bit by referring to it as Xenomorph 1121 officially, IE in company documents and such. Marines and everyday people tend to call them anything from monsters to bugs to xenomorphs. I think that works honestly.

Secondly, for the alien to work as we've seen on screen you probably have to accept the current canon which is that the facehugger does not implant an embryo. It implants, essentially, a cancerous growth that builds the chestburster from the host's own body. This results in it taking on some of the physical traits of the host (being bipedal or quadrupedal for example) Think of the cancerous growth as a template that grabs what it needs from the host to "build" the eventual chestburster. 

This xenopedia article breaks it down. It's actually really fascinating in my opinion.

Article about chestbursters
 
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Vader
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Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Fri 06 Dec 2019, 10:03

Never really got the hang of scatological humour. Sorry 'bout that... :?

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Ok, first off about the Xenomorph bit. The reference materials and the EU have "fixed" this a bit by referring to it as Xenomorph 1121 officially, IE in company documents and such. Marines and everyday people tend to call them anything from monsters to bugs to xenomorphs. I think that works honestly.
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It would indeed work. Calling it the "xenomorph #so-and-so" would shift the word for being specific to The Alien, to being the generic word for exobiological life forms it would by definition need to be.

What bothers me is the way the rule book now calls the chapter on The Alien variations "The Xenomorphs", and then the chapter on all the other xenomorphs is called "Other Extra-Solar Species".
In my mind, correct usage of the term would entail the entire section now called  "Alien Species" instead being called "Xenomorphs" ... that, after all, just being what the word means.
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Secondly, for the alien to work as we've seen on screen you probably have to accept the current canon which is that the facehugger does not implant an embryo. It implants, essentially, a cancerous growth that builds the chestburster from the host's own body. This results in it taking on some of the physical traits of the host (being bipedal or quadrupedal for example) Think of the cancerous growth as a template that grabs what it needs from the host to "build" the eventual chestburster.
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Personally, I suspect it would need to be a combination of "embryo" impregnation (i.e. a core of base building materials ... see it as a kind of elemental "scaffold" that can be filled in with whatever elements and molecules that the host can provide) and injecting some kind of microbial life forms that start to break down the host's internal structures for the embryo to use. The elaborate cancer model doesn't really work for me.


But is everyone in agreement with my correlation of Alien forms, as per the below?
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  1. Stages I-III are self-explanatory
  2. Stage IV SCOUT - "dog alien" from Alien3
  3. Stage IV DRONE - "Big Chap" from ALIEN
  4. Stage V SOLDIER - "Warrior" from ALIENS
  5. Stage V SENTRY - "Warrior" from ALIENS
  6. Stage VI QUEEN - "Queen" from ALIENS
- They're a bit like Facehuggers, aren't they?
- Face ... huggers?
- Yeah, you know. Alien.
- ...?
- The horror movie, Alien.
- There's a horror movie called Alien?? That's really offensive! No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
 
Riggswolfe
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Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Fri 06 Dec 2019, 16:02

The cancer model actually is what you describe. Describing it as a cancer is more of a layman's description of it. It's described pretty closely to what you talk about. It also injects stuff that weakens the bone structure to make breaking through the rib cage easier which I like.
As for your alien stages, the dog Xenomorph from Alien 3 is just a variation of the drone, it just happens to have come from a different host so looks and behaves a bit differently.
 
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Vader
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Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Mon 09 Dec 2019, 18:45

As for your alien stages, the dog Xenomorph from Alien 3 is just a variation of the drone, it just happens to have come from a different host so looks and behaves a bit differently.
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But if this is so, where does the game's "Stage IV SCOUT Xenomorph" come from?
I this is not the same as the "dog alien" from Alien3, then where in the source material do we see one of these?
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The cancer model actually is what you describe. Describing it as a cancer is more of a layman's description of it. It's described pretty closely to what you talk about. It also injects stuff that weakens the bone structure to make breaking through the rib cage easier which I like.
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Seems to be a question of semantics, then ... in my mind, "cancerous" implies a cellular reproduction system that has run amuck. The way I see it, it would be difficult for that kind of stampeding mitosis to follow any kind of template, or result in anything like a deliberate structure.
But if we're talking about that the Facehugger implants more or less an Alien "tumour" that starts to metabolise the tissues it finds itself surrounded by for its own exponential growth, then yes, it's not all that far from what I'm talking about.


The way I see it is this:

(What follows is a partial summary of a text on the Alien lifecycle that I wrote up back in 1986-87. Hence, it represents my subjective view only. It also perforce disregards everything from Alien3 and on. I provide it as a suggestion for an "Alternate Canon" to GM's whose players are far too well versed with the currently established one... Plus, this is what I'm running with myself. I still find it more interesting than where the film, videogame, and comics franchises have run with it these last 30 years.)

The Facehugger implants an "embryo" that provides a physical template for the final creature and all the different stages leading up to it. (There's actually a bit more to what the Facehugger does prior to all this, but I'll not go into that in this abridged version...)
The "embryo", or whatever term one prefers to use for it, is largely built up of tightly folded and packed webs of molecule chains out of the Alien's native base chemistry (whatever it is -- I myself am inclined to believe mainly silicon).
Along with the "embryo", the Facehugger leaves a colony of microbial organisms (or organic nanomachines?) that start to break down the tissues of the host to provide the "embryo" with energy as well as base elements and simple molecules that can be recombined into building blocks that the "embryo" can use.
The physical template works a bit like an infinitely complex version of a Hoberman sphere, and the scrounged building material (of whatever chemistry) are used to fill in the gaps in the web. To stretch the metaphor -- sort of like using a Hoberman sphere made out of aluminium to build a sealed enclosure by stretching whatever material happens to be available -- aluminium foil, wax cloth, plastic bags, banana leaves... -- over the gaps in the fully expanded structure.
The template defines the physical form and base structure; the scrounged material is only used to fill it out and give it substance.

Last thing the Facehugger does to complete the impregnation is basically transfuse all of its useful tissues -- e.g. the acid "blood", more complex neural tissues, etc -- into the embryo, before crawling off (Bishop interprets it wrong -- the acid doesn't neutralise when the Facehugger "dies"; it no longer has it when it leaves the host).

Partway formed -- "unfolded", one might say -- the creature looks like what we recognise as the Chestburster. Once "hatched", it continues to grow rapidly by "folding out" its molecular-hard-coded structure as it finds material to scrounge, going down different routes depending on whether it finds itself alone, or if there already is a hive (or the beginnings of one) present: a "Scout" (what I call the original "Big Chap" form) -- highly intelligent and curious; capable of independent reproduction through ovomorphing host life forms -- or a "Warrior" -- the workers/drones of the Alien nest.

Once there is a Scout and at least two Warriors present, the Scout and one Warrior will cocoon and form a Queen -- hence where the Queen gets two pairs of arms and the sturdy and ...interestingly shaped legs.

Hence also why in "my" version of the Alien universe, there can be no inherited traits -- the morphology is literally hard coded; there can be very little variation that isn't deliberate. There is ever only one type of egg (ovum), one type of Facehugger, one type of Chestburster. Everything that follows -- Scouts, Warriors, Queens, even how new ova get produced -- is dynamic situational adaptation within the pre-defined template.

Hence also, in my version, the single Facehugger that infects Russel Jorden is capable of getting the nest going all by itself. No need to have colonists have a look at Russ and think "oh wow, that looks interesting -- let's go gave a look ourselves!" as "Hope's Last Day" stipulates.
- They're a bit like Facehuggers, aren't they?
- Face ... huggers?
- Yeah, you know. Alien.
- ...?
- The horror movie, Alien.
- There's a horror movie called Alien?? That's really offensive! No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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