• 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
 
User avatar
Vader
Topic Author
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri 15 Nov 2019, 14:11
Location: The Frozen North

Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Thu 09 Jan 2020, 22:51

I believe the full paragraph you were quoting goes as follows -- the second sentence giving the crucial context:
.
FACT: There was much more to the Alien than met the eye. Since Ridley Scott used a painting by Giger as the basis for the adult Alien, he had to work backward to create the first two phases. During this process, the director came to understand the organism completely. "The nasty one," he says, "the thing that sprung out of the egg — the 'perambulatory penis' as we used to call it — is the father. All it does is plant the seed. And the next generation takes on characteristics of whatever form it landed on." This means that the ALIEN may not always be a biped! It could conceivably be a combination of the original Face Hugger and whatever host it uses!
.
So, the Alien is not made bipedal in the movie because it takes on characteristics from its host -- Sir Ridley muses that it might take on characteristics from its host because the Alien in the movie is bipedal.
Ergo, you can't really say that "the concept made it to the film and is shown on-screen", because it actually went the other way -- the concept is a rationalisation for what is on-screen, not the basis for it.

My point was 'Alien takes on characteristics of the host was a thing since they conceived the monster for the first film; not something made up for Alien 3'.

How they arrived at that point when making Alien is irrelevant.
.
Bust beg to differ, I'm afraid -- it is highly relevant. Sir Ridley retconning the inherited traits concept from Giger's bipedal design can't be said to make the concept relevant, because it isn't made apparent on-screen.
It is not until Alien3 that the concept is actually shown on-screen, in the creature's smaller stature, quadrupedal posture, and digitigrade hind legs.
- They're a bit like Facehuggers, aren't they?
- Face ... huggers?
- Yeah, you know. Alien.
- ...?
- The horror movie, Alien.
- There's a horror movie called Alien?? That's really offensive! No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
 
S.M
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat 14 Dec 2019, 06:58

Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Fri 10 Jan 2020, 00:07

Again, besides the point.  The fact is it was something the people who made the first film had taken into consideration when they were making the first film.  It wasn't created for the third film.

Whether you think the concept is present in the first film or not doesn't mean they didn't create it at the time.
 
Riggswolfe
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed 07 Dec 2016, 17:27

Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Fri 10 Jan 2020, 07:33

I'm surprised this discussion is still going on. If we're looking at canon, the alien does take on some traits from its host and does actually bring some genetics over from its host. So in a very literaly sense the alien in the first movie could be called Kane's Son though I'm not sure the Alien even has a gender as we think of it.  This is something they had in mind in the very first movie though it's not explicit in that movie because it wasn't needed for the plot. 

If you don't like this, its your gaming table, modify it how you'd like though if you have any Alien superfans at the table I'd warn them. They'll have expectations of how the alien life cycle works and if you have a four legged alien come out of a human, for example, they're going to be confused and probably feel like a bait and switch was played on them. Luckily, Alien isn't the type of universe that has a ton of fans that are that into the minutiae of the lore. 
 
User avatar
Vader
Topic Author
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri 15 Nov 2019, 14:11
Location: The Frozen North

Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Fri 10 Jan 2020, 08:55

Again, besides the point.  The fact is it was something the people who made the first film had taken into consideration when they were making the first film.  It wasn't created for the third film.

Whether you think the concept is present in the first film or not doesn't mean they didn't create it at the time.
.
Again, it is the whole point.

What may or may not have been going on in the heads of the people while making the film is irrelevant -- indeed, often you'll find there may be several diverging, even mutually contradictory, ideas and visions in the minds of different people in any given production. None of it matters.

The only thing that actually counts is what actually can be seen on-screen. And as we know that the whole idea of inherited traits was merely a retcon from the fact that Giger's design is bipedal, pointing at the bipedal Alien as "proof" is nothing but circular logic.
And Ash's line about "Kane's son" is ambiguous at best. It may be used as an argument by the literally minded, but is a far cry from anything like "proof".
- They're a bit like Facehuggers, aren't they?
- Face ... huggers?
- Yeah, you know. Alien.
- ...?
- The horror movie, Alien.
- There's a horror movie called Alien?? That's really offensive! No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
 
User avatar
Vader
Topic Author
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri 15 Nov 2019, 14:11
Location: The Frozen North

Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Fri 10 Jan 2020, 09:20

I'm surprised this discussion is still going on. If we're looking at canon, the alien does take on some traits from its host and does actually bring some genetics over from its host. So in a very literaly sense the alien in the first movie could be called Kane's Son though I'm not sure the Alien even has a gender as we think of it.  This is something they had in mind in the very first movie though it's not explicit in that movie because it wasn't needed for the plot. 

If you don't like this, its your gaming table, modify it how you'd like though if you have any Alien superfans at the table I'd warn them. They'll have expectations of how the alien life cycle works and if you have a four legged alien come out of a human, for example, they're going to be confused and probably feel like a bait and switch was played on them. Luckily, Alien isn't the type of universe that has a ton of fans that are that into the minutiae of the lore. 
.
Glad we could surprise you, then!

And that -- the surprise factor -- also perfectly illustrates why you, from my POV, couldn't be further off the mark. One of the most fundamental dramatic devices in the original Alien, if not the whole franchise, was that the audience had no idea what to expect. Knowing what to expect is contradictory to the whole concept -- it kills the Alien in Alien.
I am therefore perfectly comfortable with sticking to the original in this, as well, and can't see how this would require any special justification or caveat.

So, if "Alien superfans" come to my table thinking they know what to expect from the "established canon" ... well, more the fools, they, in that case.
Let's just say, they have another think coming.
- They're a bit like Facehuggers, aren't they?
- Face ... huggers?
- Yeah, you know. Alien.
- ...?
- The horror movie, Alien.
- There's a horror movie called Alien?? That's really offensive! No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
 
Riggswolfe
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed 07 Dec 2016, 17:27

Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Fri 10 Jan 2020, 16:31

Alien was surprising 40 years ago. I was lucky to see it shortly after release even though I was really too young to see it. 

Today, people know what to expect from Alien. The characters will be surprised when someone's chest explodes and a slimy monster comes out in a spray of blood. The players will not. And players that are fans will have certain expectations. If you try to subvert those just to surprise them or something I suspect it won't go over well with some types of players. I'd be one of them honestly. I've seen all the movies, read many of the novels and comics and read some of the "non-fiction" reference books too. I have certain expectations of what an Alien is and how it works based on all that, I suppose we'd call it research. I'm fairly aware of what the canon is regarding the aliens and I'd be unhappy if that was randomly changed by a GM without some forewarning.
 
User avatar
Vader
Topic Author
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri 15 Nov 2019, 14:11
Location: The Frozen North

Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Fri 10 Jan 2020, 23:47

Alien was surprising 40 years ago. I was lucky to see it shortly after release even though I was really too young to see it. 

Today, people know what to expect from Alien. The characters will be surprised when someone's chest explodes and a slimy monster comes out in a spray of blood. The players will not. And players that are fans will have certain expectations. If you try to subvert those just to surprise them or something I suspect it won't go over well with some types of players. I'd be one of them honestly. I've seen all the movies, read many of the novels and comics and read some of the "non-fiction" reference books too. I have certain expectations of what an Alien is and how it works based on all that, I suppose we'd call it research. I'm fairly aware of what the canon is regarding the aliens and I'd be unhappy if that was randomly changed by a GM without some forewarning.
.
My take on that is that as long as you don't contradict what's explicitly shown or stated in the movies, anything is fair game.

The only warning my players get is that I draw the line after ALIENS -- anything fitting lore established in any movie, novel, comic, or game written after that will be found at my table only by sheer coincidence.

That should be fair enough warning.
- They're a bit like Facehuggers, aren't they?
- Face ... huggers?
- Yeah, you know. Alien.
- ...?
- The horror movie, Alien.
- There's a horror movie called Alien?? That's really offensive! No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
 
Riggswolfe
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed 07 Dec 2016, 17:27

Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Sat 11 Jan 2020, 09:02

Yeah that definitely draws a pretty sharp line and would let players know what to expect. You ought to at least include Alien: Isolation though. It's more or less Alien 1.5 and is the best thing done with the Alien property after Aliens in my opinion.
 
S.M
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat 14 Dec 2019, 06:58

Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Sun 12 Jan 2020, 23:27

I'm surprised this discussion is still going on.
Yeah me too.
 
User avatar
Vader
Topic Author
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri 15 Nov 2019, 14:11
Location: The Frozen North

Re: Trying to make sense of "Xenomorphs"

Wed 15 Jan 2020, 00:46

I'm surprised this discussion is still going on.
Yeah me too.
.
You surprise yourself, then...?   ;)
- They're a bit like Facehuggers, aren't they?
- Face ... huggers?
- Yeah, you know. Alien.
- ...?
- The horror movie, Alien.
- There's a horror movie called Alien?? That's really offensive! No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests